What about if your a support, or a mage? You can't just stop everything and just build defense. Your team relies on you to dish out the damage. Late game its obvious to get defense, and if you don't you deserve to be burst down. However it's just not practical to build a cloth armor and 5 health potions as janna or annie. For a tank, or melee dps it is a no brainer, but for others its just plain stupidity. And lets face it who is talon gonna aim at level 2 the beefy rammus, or the very squishy teemo behind rammus? The reason why assassins are so good now is because they are good at countering the current metagame. Its not just about your build its how your team comp is set up.
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Counter building works as a 3rd to 5th item. Winning your lane is all about fighting only when you have advantage and effectively defeating your opponents zone. Harassment really boils down to zoning and positioning. The hardest fights are when players are around the same zoning skill and struggle to keep dominance.
Zoning is the best way to win your lane, regardless of build. If you can zone yourself into position on top of the minions and push your enemies zone over your doing something more effective then killing them. Gimp their farm/experience and watch them rage till their death.
Zoning is the best way to win your lane, regardless of build. If you can zone yourself into position on top of the minions and push your enemies zone over your doing something more effective then killing them. Gimp their farm/experience and watch them rage till their death.
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Quoted:
Counter building works as a 3rd to 5th item. Winning your lane is all about fighting only when you have advantage and effectively defeating your opponents zone. Harassment really boils down to zoning and positioning. The hardest fights are when players are around the same zoning skill and struggle to keep dominance.
Zoning is the best way to win your lane, regardless of build. If you can zone yourself into position on top of the minions and push your enemies zone over your doing something more effective then killing them. Gimp their farm/experience and watch them rage till their death.
Zoning is the best way to win your lane, regardless of build. If you can zone yourself into position on top of the minions and push your enemies zone over your doing something more effective then killing them. Gimp their farm/experience and watch them rage till their death.
Alot of what you are saying is true but there are simply matchups which cant be won if you dont counterbuild. zoning is a great tool but you cant zone a good opponent if hes playing the stronger champion
well witht his post i was mainly talking about toplane :)
but even in midlane you can cou7nterbuild a little (which you should if you are losing) since you dont need to get many extra cs to justify buying a nullmagicmantle or something. Just think about it: you are getting zoned by some earlygame caster and then you buy a negatron cloak. most fo the time the negatron will allow you to get like 20 more cs overall and that makes it more than worth it.
btw: botlane doesnt have to build resistances that bad and supports actually arenaturally tanky most of the time. Even carries can build wriggles to survive early fights in their lane tho.
greez sam
Lugignaf wrote:
You're telling me that people just build their core and never counter build?
Actually that is what people do...
but its definitely not the optimal way to build in most games ;)
Sam, you're absolutely right, and I'll expound on your thoughts to explain that this thought process is also why the meta game looks the way it does.
All things considered, even just a cloth armor goes a long way in regards to damage reduction early on.
However, most AP's don't really have that luxury to buy a cloth armor, as pretty much no core AP build uses a cloth armor in it. They need to be in a safer place (Like the mid lane because of how short the lane is) so that they can farm in safety. Some players have even been running AP's in the bot lane as of late. Exceptions to AP's not building resistances could be a good laner like Swain, who can comfortably build a Frozen Heart. For Swain the Cloth armor would not be wasted. (This is part of the reason he is considered to be a strong solo top- he can build the resistances and use the items well. He also has sustain. For the other AP's who cannot use the items or do not have sustain, they may need the safety of a shorter lane.)
AD carries need to build damage early, so the players have devised that a support to heal off damage would be the best method to achieve a "Safe" scenario for those caries to farm, in the bot lane. Chaox was the first to really bring Wriggle's to the bot lane, and it works well as a tool to win exchanges in that lane and control your bot lane early. It keeps you safer from ganks as well and affords a generally stronger early game for the bottom half of your map. However it does lower your damage output substantially, and that is a substantially negative impact on your first team fight. I don't build Wriggles on carries unless I feel I NEED it. I will sometimes build it as well when my support has no heal AND my opponents have a physical poke (Ezreal, Cait, Urgot or something). Otherwise Blood Thirster is superior.
However, junglers only need 1-2 items before they can easily clear the jungle. Wriggle's lantern or a Wit's End is generally good enough for most of the significant junglers in regards to both clear speed and sustain. The jungler is a champion who is generally more able to build those resistances you're referring to. As a jungler, GENERALLY you're going to be a melee bruiser type. There are very few exceptions to this. Udyr, Trundle, Nocturne, GP, the list goes on, and all of those champions are good with some HP and resistances.
Yet, the real place where using resistances to counter your opponents is the solo top lane. Almost every successful solo top player plays a champion who scales well with defensive gear, and starts with health and resistances in their item choice.
Exceptions might be Akali recently, who was a bit OP with a gunblade and thusly able to solo top quite well with huge burst and sustain. Talon seemed good, but I personally never had a problem against one. Armor drops his damage substantially.
So for these reasons, you see a lot of tanky champions in the top lane. This is because they WANT resistances and HP already, so building them in the lane phase doesn't delay the purchase of items they will be using anyway, and it will enable them to win the lane early and scale them well into the late game. It will also enable a secure solo top lane.
And for these reasons you see the squishier champions in the mid and bot lanes, where they are safer.
It's all about the efficiency of itemization, and using the right tools for the right job, to have the strongest team possible as early as possible. Ideally that team will scale well into late game to boot.
All things considered, even just a cloth armor goes a long way in regards to damage reduction early on.
However, most AP's don't really have that luxury to buy a cloth armor, as pretty much no core AP build uses a cloth armor in it. They need to be in a safer place (Like the mid lane because of how short the lane is) so that they can farm in safety. Some players have even been running AP's in the bot lane as of late. Exceptions to AP's not building resistances could be a good laner like Swain, who can comfortably build a Frozen Heart. For Swain the Cloth armor would not be wasted. (This is part of the reason he is considered to be a strong solo top- he can build the resistances and use the items well. He also has sustain. For the other AP's who cannot use the items or do not have sustain, they may need the safety of a shorter lane.)
AD carries need to build damage early, so the players have devised that a support to heal off damage would be the best method to achieve a "Safe" scenario for those caries to farm, in the bot lane. Chaox was the first to really bring Wriggle's to the bot lane, and it works well as a tool to win exchanges in that lane and control your bot lane early. It keeps you safer from ganks as well and affords a generally stronger early game for the bottom half of your map. However it does lower your damage output substantially, and that is a substantially negative impact on your first team fight. I don't build Wriggles on carries unless I feel I NEED it. I will sometimes build it as well when my support has no heal AND my opponents have a physical poke (Ezreal, Cait, Urgot or something). Otherwise Blood Thirster is superior.
However, junglers only need 1-2 items before they can easily clear the jungle. Wriggle's lantern or a Wit's End is generally good enough for most of the significant junglers in regards to both clear speed and sustain. The jungler is a champion who is generally more able to build those resistances you're referring to. As a jungler, GENERALLY you're going to be a melee bruiser type. There are very few exceptions to this. Udyr, Trundle, Nocturne, GP, the list goes on, and all of those champions are good with some HP and resistances.
Yet, the real place where using resistances to counter your opponents is the solo top lane. Almost every successful solo top player plays a champion who scales well with defensive gear, and starts with health and resistances in their item choice.
Exceptions might be Akali recently, who was a bit OP with a gunblade and thusly able to solo top quite well with huge burst and sustain. Talon seemed good, but I personally never had a problem against one. Armor drops his damage substantially.
So for these reasons, you see a lot of tanky champions in the top lane. This is because they WANT resistances and HP already, so building them in the lane phase doesn't delay the purchase of items they will be using anyway, and it will enable them to win the lane early and scale them well into the late game. It will also enable a secure solo top lane.
And for these reasons you see the squishier champions in the mid and bot lanes, where they are safer.
It's all about the efficiency of itemization, and using the right tools for the right job, to have the strongest team possible as early as possible. Ideally that team will scale well into late game to boot.
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^ This is also why I like armour yellows and MR blues so much. I feel like if you take armour yellows to top and bot lane, or MR blues in mid, you're giving yourself a pretty nice early game advantage.
I use armor yellows and mr blues on almost every champion. Even AD carries ^^
I think AP's would be the only exception. lol.
I think AP's would be the only exception. lol.
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i have read alot of complaints about asassins being hopelessly op and i want to give my opinion on that.
Most people have trouble facing bursty charakters since they can totally destroy you if you misstep even once. The answer to a really tough lane is counterbuilding. Sounds pretty obvious right? Well I still dont see very many people doing that.
Lets say you are nasus and are laning vs a talon. The right coice would be to pick up armor yellows and start with cloth armor and 5 pots (armor mastery t1 in deftree). That way you should be pretty peefy. If you still get outlaned by him ,which will happen against most good talon players, you want to rush a glacial shroud. That item gives you defense vs physical and increases your farming potential by alot (more Q lasthits).
This was a single example but it might help people. YOU CAN COUNTERBUILD ON ANY CHAMP you just have to know how to do it without gimping your game!
I hope people will read this and find it helpful.
greez sam