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Build Guide By Hap800
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Swain Build Guide By Hap800
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Swain Build Guide By Hap800
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So I agree with most of what you say but the only problem I see with your 23% cooldown is that your counting on having blue all the time which realistically you won't. Also I know you said Zhonyas is optional but it think you should just pass it up all together. DFG isn't that bad I think it could easily replace Zhonya's slot.
If you want more CDR, you can always build Glacial Shroud a or Spirit Visage. Either of those will do all that you should need.
Saying that Zhonya's is useless would be a lie. Saying DFG is useful would also be a lie.
How many times have you been saved by a Guardian Angel? Now imagine one that doesn't give MR but gives you 100 AP. That's Zhonya's. I only like it because it's an offtank AP item. What I think people fail to understand though about this build are two things, how strong Zhonya's is and how situational it is at the same time. Mainly, I will build this to escape focus fire from the enemy team when they have chosen me as their main target for whatever reason. This allows you to basically save yourself, redirect focus to someone else, then come back and use one more spell rotation before either they die or you do. The only purpose Zhonya's serves is to get the focus off of you, but it does this extremely well, so well that I thought it was better suited for the main build than just a mention.
DFG on the other hand is entirely pointless. This time, let's imagine Gunblade. Now take 600 Gold off the cost. Now remove everything except AP and the Active, buff the Active a bit, and add a tiny bit of Mana Regen and CDR. Worth the cost? Absolutely not. A big complaint about my build is how cost ineffective it is, and this wouldn't help that at all. Now the second problem, DFG brings nothing to the table for Swain that he can't get cheaper elsewhere. CDR can be found in Glacial Shroud, and AP can be found in Abyssal Scepter. Both of these items add to Swain's sustainability through defenses, and each does more than DFG does for 500-1000 Gold less. Mana Regen is useless because of the speed at which you burn Mana as well, and is pointless to itemize for. Finally, the active of DFG is overrated. It's only strong against Champions that have a lot of Health... not defenses and Health, just Health. You did know that DFG is affected by MR, thus negating a majority of the effective damage against Tanky targets, right?
Now, most AD Carries (You should be focusing the AD Carry at this point, if not you're doing it VERY wrong because you are tanky enough to dive the enemy team to get to them at this point, or you should be) have about 2200 Health if they have built a Banshee's by endgame, plus about 100 MR assuming that they have a Support with an Aegis by Endgame (hint hint, this happens a lot). With this Swain build modified with DFG, you will have about 500 AP or thereabouts. DFG has 30% Current Health Damage dealt in Magic Damage, plus 3.5% for every 100 AP. This is 30+17.5, or 47.5% HP in Magic Damage. Assuming the 100 MR, you cut this in half to 23.75%. 23.75% of 2200 is 523 Damage, rounded up. Plus the 20% bonus damage modifier from Swain's E, this becomes 627.6 Damage. Add this all up, that's 627.6 damage one time in a Teamfight if you do the rotation correctly and get DFG off BEFORE Torment does damage to the target, which will rarely happen against a smart carry who creates distance between themself and you as you approach. More likely than not, Torment will also tick once or twice before you can get everything off, lowering the damage from DFG even more. The sad thing is, you could have killed the Carry without the Active anyway if you had bought something more effective anyway, either more tankiness to get off more Ult ticks, or more AP to do damage faster. And also, after using this item, the stats it gives you aren't even close to worth the 2610 Gold it cost you to get it. All in all, the item is cost ineffective for the stats, and the Active is basically just overkill on what you could already do to really any given target worth targeting.
I didn't mention it in the guide, but thinking it over there is one situation in which a DFG might be useful, but it is so specific that I don't think it's worth adding as a footnote. That situation is as follows, a fed Nasus is splitpushing and you are Swain, and somehow also the strongest 1v1 on your team. This almost never happens because there is almost always a better 1v1 than a Swain in Solo Queue especially, Nasus is a rare pick, Nasuses don't splitpush all the time, and Nasuses don't get fed a whole lot. Should this situation occur, then you could E then Ignite DFG Nasus to do a nice bit of damage to deter him from trying that trick again, but unless he tries this multiple times, it's the only time you'll use it, meaning you would probably sell it anyway once he cuts it out.
1) You take Nevermove at level 1 in case you need to save your Jungler from a surprise Blue gank at level one. An AoE Snare at level one that deals decent damage is a huge asset, much more so than the one E you could get off in that time.
2) Swain's Cooldowns are negligible. He's not like other Casters requiring CDR because his longest Cooldown is about 10 seconds. If he had longer Cooldowns on his spells then maybe, but as it stands he doesn't, and 40% CDR seems like a waste to me. The 23% from Blue Buff is good enough for me. Maxing CDR is mostly intended for Casters with long-cooldown ultimates, or infinite Spell chains with 40% CDR. Swain has neither of these, and therefore it is not a crucial stat for him. Oh and also, MR Glyphs are much better on him than CDR. I know, I've tried CDR and MR. CDR's effect can't be felt in lane, and that's where your strength needs to lie. Since you usually end up laning against AP, MR is essential, especially when you have a flat 30 throughout the whole game if you don't add any on.
3) I got the runes. As for the masteries for MPen, Swain's main role is as an off-tank, and I prefer... ed... the Health Regen from Strength of Spirit. I did try both options, and while the MPen made you more bursty and powerful, I often found myself backing when I should have been able to sustain until 6 or so. Sometimes with this setup I've ended up staying in lane with just boots well past level 10 through a combination of my Pots, Ult, and general tankiness. Items well... I have Void Staff as an option for a reason.
NEVER need blue eh? I'd call that a stretch, but okay. I know Swain's passive is awesome for Mana conservation, but that's countered by his ridiculously high cost of sustain. Playing Swain the way I do, the way you've seen me kill my lane over and over again, requires a lot of Mana. You're also forgetting that last hitting with Swain is a... very difficult thing to do. Because none of his spells (even his W really) has a high up-front amount of damage, you can't pull that trick and last hit just before the tower swipes it, and believe me, you're going to be at your tower as Swain for a lot of the laning phase. Also, you forgot to mention Teamfights later in the game. Without Blue Buff in those, you will be OOM almost all the time, I assure you. Swain's Ult and generally high Mana costs will see to that.
Why in the world would you want Sorc Shoes? This is what I never understand about common Swain builds. Let's get something straight, Swain will never have extremely high damage; he will never deal as much damage as Brand, Leblanc, or Malzahar in one burst, so stop thinking like you're playing one of them. Now think about this one; Swain's biggest strength is sustainability, and what do you need for sustainability? Defences. Sorc Shoes would be nice if you were trying to deal a bunch of damage really fast, but with Swain, you need to draw out the fight to be successful, and with Sorc Shoes, you're more likely to get dropped fairly quickly than to be able to burst someone down before they kill you. The idea is to tank one burst from a high damage caster, ie. Leblanc / Brand, and tick them down with your DoT and Ult. Sorc Shoes don't help you do this, and as such they are a waste.
I think I explained DFG. Swain doesn't need the up front damage if you're doing it right. You also fail to remember that the Active has a pretty good chunk of Cooldown on it, and that while it is down, the item is utterly worthless for Swain. You say that Swain needs to be sustainable and hold out through the fight, how can you do that with an item intended solely for damage? It's an entirely illogical choice if you are being hit in a Teamfight at all, and unless the other team is really, really dumb, you will be.
WotA Looks good for Swain on paper, but think for one second. It is highly an offensive item, with the prominent stat being AP. While the Spell Vamp does help, you fail to take into account the fact that better defences would likely have stopped more damage than the healing ticks from your ult / healing from your spells in the first place. I don't never use WotA, I grab one when I face a team with lots of Healing Reduction, but other than that I would generally stay away from this one, as it won't save you as much as higher defensive stats in the long run.
I also don't like your build as a whole. Do you like having 30-40 (Depending on how you made up your Runes, Masteries, etc.) MR for an entire game? That's a perfect way to let some Annie beat your face in again and again when you could have been helping yourself not die to her. You also forgot about Rylai's... which procs the full 35% Slow on each bird from your Ult... who needs mobility when you slow everyone that much anyway? Rylai's makes you unchaseable and unescapeable... except for people with built in blinks >_>... Anyway, your Swain will melt in a teamfight if the other AP Carry so much as breathes on you... not the ideal way to play Swain in my mind. Defensive items on Swain are NOT optional, they are MANDATORY, that's why I like Abyssal and Zhonya's so much.
I know the build is expensive, but most of the time you won't get that far anyway. Also, I was mostly just mapping out what I'd do if the damage on the opposing team was completely balanced, which is rarely ever the case. More often than not I will forgo Abyssal or Zhonya's in favor of a different situational item, so the build you see at the top is most definitely not set in stone.
So I agree with most of what you say but the only problem I see with your 23% cooldown is that your counting on having blue all the time which realistically you won't. Also I know you said Zhonyas is optional but it think you should just pass it up all together. DFG isn't that bad I think it could easily replace Zhonya's slot.
1) You take Nevermove at level 1 in case you need to save your Jungler from a surprise Blue gank at level one. An AoE Snare at level one that deals decent damage is a huge asset, much more so than the one E you could get off in that time.
2) Swain's Cooldowns are negligible. He's not like other Casters requiring CDR because his longest Cooldown is about 10 seconds. If he had longer Cooldowns on his spells then maybe, but as it stands he doesn't, and 40% CDR seems like a waste to me. The 23% from Blue Buff is good enough for me. Maxing CDR is mostly intended for Casters with long-cooldown ultimates, or infinite Spell chains with 40% CDR. Swain has neither of these, and therefore it is not a crucial stat for him. Oh and also, MR Glyphs are much better on him than CDR. I know, I've tried CDR and MR. CDR's effect can't be felt in lane, and that's where your strength needs to lie. Since you usually end up laning against AP, MR is essential, especially when you have a flat 30 throughout the whole game if you don't add any on.
3) I got the runes. As for the masteries for MPen, Swain's main role is as an off-tank, and I prefer... ed... the Health Regen from Strength of Spirit. I did try both options, and while the MPen made you more bursty and powerful, I often found myself backing when I should have been able to sustain until 6 or so. Sometimes with this setup I've ended up staying in lane with just boots well past level 10 through a combination of my Pots, Ult, and general tankiness. Items well... I have Void Staff as an option for a reason.
NEVER need blue eh? I'd call that a stretch, but okay. I know Swain's passive is awesome for Mana conservation, but that's countered by his ridiculously high cost of sustain. Playing Swain the way I do, the way you've seen me kill my lane over and over again, requires a lot of Mana. You're also forgetting that last hitting with Swain is a... very difficult thing to do. Because none of his spells (even his W really) has a high up-front amount of damage, you can't pull that trick and last hit just before the tower swipes it, and believe me, you're going to be at your tower as Swain for a lot of the laning phase. Also, you forgot to mention Teamfights later in the game. Without Blue Buff in those, you will be OOM almost all the time, I assure you. Swain's Ult and generally high Mana costs will see to that.
Why in the world would you want Sorc Shoes? This is what I never understand about common Swain builds. Let's get something straight, Swain will never have extremely high damage; he will never deal as much damage as Brand, Leblanc, or Malzahar in one burst, so stop thinking like you're playing one of them. Now think about this one; Swain's biggest strength is sustainability, and what do you need for sustainability? Defences. Sorc Shoes would be nice if you were trying to deal a bunch of damage really fast, but with Swain, you need to draw out the fight to be successful, and with Sorc Shoes, you're more likely to get dropped fairly quickly than to be able to burst someone down before they kill you. The idea is to tank one burst from a high damage caster, ie. Leblanc / Brand, and tick them down with your DoT and Ult. Sorc Shoes don't help you do this, and as such they are a waste.
I think I explained DFG. Swain doesn't need the up front damage if you're doing it right. You also fail to remember that the Active has a pretty good chunk of Cooldown on it, and that while it is down, the item is utterly worthless for Swain. You say that Swain needs to be sustainable and hold out through the fight, how can you do that with an item intended solely for damage? It's an entirely illogical choice if you are being hit in a Teamfight at all, and unless the other team is really, really dumb, you will be.
WotA Looks good for Swain on paper, but think for one second. It is highly an offensive item, with the prominent stat being AP. While the Spell Vamp does help, you fail to take into account the fact that better defences would likely have stopped more damage than the healing ticks from your ult / healing from your spells in the first place. I don't never use WotA, I grab one when I face a team with lots of Healing Reduction, but other than that I would generally stay away from this one, as it won't save you as much as higher defensive stats in the long run.
I also don't like your build as a whole. Do you like having 30-40 (Depending on how you made up your Runes, Masteries, etc.) MR for an entire game? That's a perfect way to let some Annie beat your face in again and again when you could have been helping yourself not die to her. You also forgot about Rylai's... which procs the full 35% Slow on each bird from your Ult... who needs mobility when you slow everyone that much anyway? Rylai's makes you unchaseable and unescapeable... except for people with built in blinks >_>... Anyway, your Swain will melt in a teamfight if the other AP Carry so much as breathes on you... not the ideal way to play Swain in my mind. Defensive items on Swain are NOT optional, they are MANDATORY, that's why I like Abyssal and Zhonya's so much.
I know the build is expensive, but most of the time you won't get that far anyway. Also, I was mostly just mapping out what I'd do if the damage on the opposing team was completely balanced, which is rarely ever the case. More often than not I will forgo Abyssal or Zhonya's in favor of a different situational item, so the build you see at the top is most definitely not set in stone.
So I agree with most of what you say but the only problem I see with your 23% cooldown is that your counting on having blue all the time which realistically you won't. Also I know you said Zhonyas is optional but it think you should just pass it up all together. DFG isn't that bad I think it could easily replace Zhonya's slot.
Hey Hap,
Just a few things I would like to add to your build. I will list them in paragraph form.
First off, your skill order a bit off, nevermore at lvl 3 is better.
Second, you need ALOT more cooldown in your build, either from you masteries (offensive) and/or runes.
Third, you need magic pen! you have the bare min. Either from you runes/items/masteries!
These are caster basics.
Furthermore, for such an in depth guide you fail to mention swains most important feature, his PASSIVE. You should be exclusively last hitting for this reason, swain is the second best AP laner in terms of mana sustain (malz first). WIth this you NEVER need blue, NEVER.
For a better build I would use Sorc boots, Deathfires grasps, ROA, Death cap, will of the ancients, and an optional defensive item depending on the game. Your focus on swain is not to ap carry be to deal constant and sustain dmg over the entire team fight, this means, CDR, survivability, and mobility. All in all good guide for pre lvl 30 games, but after that your rolling the dice in your games, this build is to expensive and situational.
cheers,
Jomo
P.S. Look at deathfire grasp again, really just look at it again....
1) You take Nevermove at level 1 in case you need to save your Jungler from a surprise Blue gank at level one. An AoE Snare at level one that deals decent damage is a huge asset, much more so than the one E you could get off in that time.
2) Swain's Cooldowns are negligible. He's not like other Casters requiring CDR because his longest Cooldown is about 10 seconds. If he had longer Cooldowns on his spells then maybe, but as it stands he doesn't, and 40% CDR seems like a waste to me. The 23% from Blue Buff is good enough for me. Maxing CDR is mostly intended for Casters with long-cooldown ultimates, or infinite Spell chains with 40% CDR. Swain has neither of these, and therefore it is not a crucial stat for him. Oh and also, MR Glyphs are much better on him than CDR. I know, I've tried CDR and MR. CDR's effect can't be felt in lane, and that's where your strength needs to lie. Since you usually end up laning against AP, MR is essential, especially when you have a flat 30 throughout the whole game if you don't add any on.
3) I got the runes. As for the masteries for MPen, Swain's main role is as an off-tank, and I prefer... ed... the Health Regen from Strength of Spirit. I did try both options, and while the MPen made you more bursty and powerful, I often found myself backing when I should have been able to sustain until 6 or so. Sometimes with this setup I've ended up staying in lane with just boots well past level 10 through a combination of my Pots, Ult, and general tankiness. Items well... I have Void Staff as an option for a reason.
NEVER need blue eh? I'd call that a stretch, but okay. I know Swain's passive is awesome for Mana conservation, but that's countered by his ridiculously high cost of sustain. Playing Swain the way I do, the way you've seen me kill my lane over and over again, requires a lot of Mana. You're also forgetting that last hitting with Swain is a... very difficult thing to do. Because none of his spells (even his W really) has a high up-front amount of damage, you can't pull that trick and last hit just before the tower swipes it, and believe me, you're going to be at your tower as Swain for a lot of the laning phase. Also, you forgot to mention Teamfights later in the game. Without Blue Buff in those, you will be OOM almost all the time, I assure you. Swain's Ult and generally high Mana costs will see to that.
Why in the world would you want Sorc Shoes? This is what I never understand about common Swain builds. Let's get something straight, Swain will never have extremely high damage; he will never deal as much damage as Brand, Leblanc, or Malzahar in one burst, so stop thinking like you're playing one of them. Now think about this one; Swain's biggest strength is sustainability, and what do you need for sustainability? Defences. Sorc Shoes would be nice if you were trying to deal a bunch of damage really fast, but with Swain, you need to draw out the fight to be successful, and with Sorc Shoes, you're more likely to get dropped fairly quickly than to be able to burst someone down before they kill you. The idea is to tank one burst from a high damage caster, ie. Leblanc / Brand, and tick them down with your DoT and Ult. Sorc Shoes don't help you do this, and as such they are a waste.
I think I explained DFG. Swain doesn't need the up front damage if you're doing it right. You also fail to remember that the Active has a pretty good chunk of Cooldown on it, and that while it is down, the item is utterly worthless for Swain. You say that Swain needs to be sustainable and hold out through the fight, how can you do that with an item intended solely for damage? It's an entirely illogical choice if you are being hit in a Teamfight at all, and unless the other team is really, really dumb, you will be.
WotA Looks good for Swain on paper, but think for one second. It is highly an offensive item, with the prominent stat being AP. While the Spell Vamp does help, you fail to take into account the fact that better defences would likely have stopped more damage than the healing ticks from your ult / healing from your spells in the first place. I don't never use WotA, I grab one when I face a team with lots of Healing Reduction, but other than that I would generally stay away from this one, as it won't save you as much as higher defensive stats in the long run.
I also don't like your build as a whole. Do you like having 30-40 (Depending on how you made up your Runes, Masteries, etc.) MR for an entire game? That's a perfect way to let some Annie beat your face in again and again when you could have been helping yourself not die to her. You also forgot about Rylai's... which procs the full 35% Slow on each bird from your Ult... who needs mobility when you slow everyone that much anyway? Rylai's makes you unchaseable and unescapeable... except for people with built in blinks >_>... Anyway, your Swain will melt in a teamfight if the other AP Carry so much as breathes on you... not the ideal way to play Swain in my mind. Defensive items on Swain are NOT optional, they are MANDATORY, that's why I like Abyssal and Zhonya's so much.
I know the build is expensive, but most of the time you won't get that far anyway. Also, I was mostly just mapping out what I'd do if the damage on the opposing team was completely balanced, which is rarely ever the case. More often than not I will forgo Abyssal or Zhonya's in favor of a different situational item, so the build you see at the top is most definitely not set in stone.
Just a few things I would like to add to your build. I will list them in paragraph form.
First off, your skill order a bit off, nevermore at lvl 3 is better.
Second, you need ALOT more cooldown in your build, either from you masteries (offensive) and/or runes.
Third, you need magic pen! you have the bare min. Either from you runes/items/masteries!
These are caster basics.
Furthermore, for such an in depth guide you fail to mention swains most important feature, his PASSIVE. You should be exclusively last hitting for this reason, swain is the second best AP laner in terms of mana sustain (malz first). WIth this you NEVER need blue, NEVER.
For a better build I would use Sorc boots, Deathfires grasps, ROA, Death cap, will of the ancients, and an optional defensive item depending on the game. Your focus on swain is not to ap carry be to deal constant and sustain dmg over the entire team fight, this means, CDR, survivability, and mobility. All in all good guide for pre lvl 30 games, but after that your rolling the dice in your games, this build is to expensive and situational.
cheers,
Jomo
P.S. Look at deathfire grasp again, really just look at it again....