Wriggles....always Wriggles.

[quote=JEFFY40HANDS]You don't need it on "tanks" Shen in general is a terrible jungler (imo) but he can do it. Getting HoG is better for Shen than Wriggles. Mainly because you want to keep his passive as strong as possible. Malphite has nice AoE damage and clears well. HE also doesn't need Wriggles. Mundo has AoE clear no need for it. Rammus has Defensive Ball Curl, which means damage, which means HE doesn't need it either. The champs that can USE it effectively are AD scaling champs that do not have "super natural" durability or sustain. BUT DO have amazing jungle speed. Twitch and Tryn DO NOT need Wriggles. Tryn has naturally high damage output and "reliable" crit chance. Twitch has an easily appliable DoT+AS steroid. just my 2 cents.[/quote]

[quote=Phoenix0000ff][quote=Searz] [quote=DuffTime] [quote=Searz] [quote=Phoenix0000ff] I think it's because a majority of people who actually read guides may not have a lot of experience jungling. I know when I removed Wriggle's from my Twitch guide I fell 4% but I figured it's better to go down a hero.[/quote] Well, um.. Twitch should build Wriggle..[/quote] I think Vincent proooobably plays enough Twitch to be able to make these kinds of statements by now :) Also my 2 cents. Twitch is not a jungler who ought to be spending most of his time farming mobs. Wriggle's procs don't work on champions, and thusly, IMHO, bad item on rat.[/quote] True, but I figured that his jungle is so poor that it would benefit a ton from having it. I mean; it's still a good item for anyone who can make use of all the stats and the proc(junglers, obviously), so most junglers that have use of life steal and AD have good use of it. [/quote] Not going to lie Mr. Searz Sometimes about once every 50 games I buy one at 30 minutes if I want to be able to kill baron in 10 seconds. It's good though just you're not going to farm as well as a shyv, udyr, or mundo so why pretend to be one of those guys. You can make an argument for having better ganks though so I often build around that. There is a time and place and it's not always 30 minutes in. Everyone expects the jungle twitch with wriggles to pop up on them when they have boots-dorans at 7-11 minutes. No one expects the 4 Doran's blade Twitch who can 1v3.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime][quote=Searz] True, but I figured that his jungle is so poor that it would benefit a ton from having it. I mean; it's still a good item for anyone who can make use of all the stats and the proc(junglers, obviously), so most junglers that have use of life steal and AD have good use of it. [/quote] Ye, and valid, but I do think that rat is sorta the odd exception. [quote=Searz] Lol, how can you pass up on wriggle on Ree? Seriously, dat ward jump, bro. [/quote] Agree. Not to mention the synergy with W. I usually pick Lee when W would be good, and thusly Wriggle's just makes sense. [quote=Searz] D sword start is generally pretty bad unless your first lvl2 gank succeeds. It's risky and you can only gank once before recalling, assuming you take damage when ganking(minions and attacks and what not). Cloth+pots is safe and allows you to jungle longer and gank more. It's generally better. I've yet to see a single good guide recommend D sword. Heck, even boots are better for ganking and they probably ain't worse in the jungle either. [/quote] Somebody else mentioned the Life steal quints and masteries, which make a D blade start viable, and also which what with the life steal nerfs in items have become a realistic way to get a base level of life steal without items. It works nice. [quote=MasterShorty] Seriously man, gimme a *reason why* you should build wriggles on these champions...=P [/quote] Clear speed and finishing camps with full HP is the reason. Makes ganking more frequent and more realistic, which is really what a player -should- be doing as a jungler. Ganks have dramatic impact on the way lanes are played, ganking often is better than farming a lot. Wriggle's minimizes the time you spend in the jungle and maximizes the sustain while clearing further facilitating ganking. A nice side effect of wriggle's is superior objective control. Faster dragons and barons and red/blue buffs. I repeat, in my opinion, this is a SIDE effect, the true focus is that it minimizes time spent in camps where a player isn't accomplishing anything substantial for his team. [quote=Phoenix0000ff] No one expects the 4 Doran's blade Twitch who can 1v3. [/quote] ... >:) I looove it when that Twitch shows up.[/quote]

[quote=Searz]Nice sum-up Duffy. edit: woot, I can't give rep for some reason O.o It says I've already given for that..[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]Hue. NP about the repz xD[/quote]

[quote=MasterShorty]Thanks duff, I now understand more =D[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]Cheers mate ^_^[/quote]

[quote=b3astliness][quote=Phoenix0000ff] [quote=Searz] [quote=DuffTime] [quote=Searz] [quote=Phoenix0000ff] I think it's because a majority of people who actually read guides may not have a lot of experience jungling. I know when I removed Wriggle's from my Twitch guide I fell 4% but I figured it's better to go down a hero.[/quote] Well, um.. Twitch should build Wriggle..[/quote] I think Vincent proooobably plays enough Twitch to be able to make these kinds of statements by now :) Also my 2 cents. Twitch is not a jungler who ought to be spending most of his time farming mobs. Wriggle's procs don't work on champions, and thusly, IMHO, bad item on rat.[/quote] True, but I figured that his jungle is so poor that it would benefit a ton from having it. I mean; it's still a good item for anyone who can make use of all the stats and the proc(junglers, obviously), so most junglers that have use of life steal and AD have good use of it. [/quote] Not going to lie Mr. Searz Sometimes about once every 50 games I buy one at 30 minutes if I want to be able to kill baron in 10 seconds. It's good though just you're not going to farm as well as a shyv, udyr, or mundo so why pretend to be one of those guys. You can make an argument for having better ganks though so I often build around that. There is a time and place and it's not always 30 minutes in. Everyone expects the jungle twitch with wriggles to pop up on them when they have boots-dorans at 7-11 minutes. No one expects the 4 Doran's blade Twitch who can 1v3. [/quote] [[Trundle]] with wriggles begs to differ.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]^ Is this specifically directed at the very last thing he wrote? Cause otherwise my brain is melting.[/quote]

[quote=b3astliness]yeah lol[/quote]