Wriggles....always Wriggles.

[quote=DuffTime][quote=Luther3000] I don't think it's really necessary on Phoenix Udyr either, since he clears so fast already from R procs. I find just straight up getting Wit's End improves his ganks and clear times a lot more than Wriggle's does. [/quote] Valid. I forgot Udyr cause I just tend to think of other junglers first. [quote=Searz] [quote=Phoenix0000ff] I think it's because a majority of people who actually read guides may not have a lot of experience jungling. I know when I removed Wriggle's from my Twitch guide I fell 4% but I figured it's better to go down a hero.[/quote] Well, um.. Twitch should build Wriggle.. [/quote] I think Vincent proooobably plays enough Twitch to be able to make these kinds of statements by now :) Also my 2 cents. Twitch is not a jungler who ought to be spending most of his time farming mobs. Wriggle's procs don't work on champions, and thusly, IMHO, bad item on rat.[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD]Personally I stopped using Wriggle's on the majority of my junglers. On a lot of junglers the [[Doran's Blade]] I start with is enough to jungle fast and I feel that Wriggle's sets back my full build. After all of its nerfs I only get it on champions who need it in the jungle and leave it to them; my [[Lee Sin]] doesn't need it. :P[/quote]

[quote=Searz][quote=DuffTime] [quote=Searz] [quote=Phoenix0000ff] I think it's because a majority of people who actually read guides may not have a lot of experience jungling. I know when I removed Wriggle's from my Twitch guide I fell 4% but I figured it's better to go down a hero.[/quote] Well, um.. Twitch should build Wriggle..[/quote] I think Vincent proooobably plays enough Twitch to be able to make these kinds of statements by now :) Also my 2 cents. Twitch is not a jungler who ought to be spending most of his time farming mobs. Wriggle's procs don't work on champions, and thusly, IMHO, bad item on rat.[/quote] True, but I figured that his jungle is so poor that it would benefit a ton from having it. I mean; it's still a good item for anyone who can make use of all the stats and the proc(junglers, obviously), so most junglers that have use of life steal and AD have good use of it.[/quote]

[quote=Searz][quote=GrandmasterD] After all of its nerfs I only get it on champions who need it in the jungle and leave it to them; my [[Lee Sin]] doesn't need it. :P[/quote] Lol, how can you pass up on wriggle on Ree? Seriously, dat ward jump, bro.[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=Searz] [quote=GrandmasterD] After all of its nerfs I only get it on champions who need it in the jungle and leave it to them; my [[Lee Sin]] doesn't need it. :P[/quote] Lol, how can you pass up on wriggle on Ree? Seriously, dat ward jump, bro. [/quote] Start Doran's is faster Phage + Aegis; also you can buy a shitload of wards for the difference between wriggle's and doran's. :P[/quote]

[quote=Searz]D sword start is generally pretty bad unless your first lvl2 gank succeeds. It's risky and you can only gank once before recalling, assuming you take damage when ganking(minions and attacks and what not). Cloth+pots is safe and allows you to jungle longer and gank more. It's generally better. I've yet to see a single good guide recommend D sword. Heck, even boots are better for ganking and they probably ain't worse in the jungle either.[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=Searz] But D sword start is generally pretty bad unless your first lvl2 gank succeeds. It's risky and you can only gank once before recalling. Cloth+pots is safe and allows you to jungle longer and gank more. It's generally better. I've yet to see a single good guide recommend D sword. Heck, even boots are better for ganking. [/quote] D Blade is all you need to jungle properly on a couple of junglers, [[lee sin]] is one of them. With it you can take on anyone 1v1 and your early ganks are incredibly strong.[/quote]

[quote=Yagamoth][quote=Searz] D sword start is generally pretty bad unless your first lvl2 gank succeeds. It's risky and you can only gank once before recalling, assuming you take damage when ganking(minions and attacks and what not). Cloth+pots is safe and allows you to jungle longer and gank more. It's generally better. I've yet to see a single good guide recommend D sword. Heck, even boots are better for ganking and they probably ain't worse in the jungle either. [/quote] I've noticed a lot of people using 21/9/0 masteries with the 3% Lifesteal and 6% Lifesteal-quints, combine that with a Dorans Blade gives 12% Lifesteal, that's more than a Vampiric Scepter provides. Meaning: You can still go back to the jungle with that amount of Lifesteal, even after a failed gank (assuming you don't drop below 20%). Also, the difference in power from taking a Dorans Blade over cloth 5 is fairly extreme when you try it out. In my opinion, only boots "can" provide a more significant advantage in early aggressive play, depending on situation.[/quote]

[quote=Searz]^That [b]might[/b] work. But you'll be losing out on almost as much AD as you get by buying D blade when not using AD quints. And it's still much riskier than cloth/boots+pots because pots provide sooo much safety compared to life steal.[/quote]

[quote=MasterShorty][quote=DuffTime] Wriggles is better on almost every single champion for jungling. [/quote] dude, my question is *why* you need wriggles on almost every single champ. I agree with the other comments, it should be a situational item, not a must have for most junglers. If your buying wriggles on a champion like Shen, or Malphite, etc etc. Your not building towards his strengths. Building wriggles on a champion like Shaco, on the other hand, is a must have because you are *building towards his strengths and countering he weaknesses.* Shaco is very squishy (he needs armour), he is very gankable (needs the ward), has not so good jungle sustain (needs the lifesteal), and as an Auto Attack style champion, he needs the damage. But with Shen? He has a slow clear time, so wriggles *can* make his jungle faster...but why build for faster early game when you can build for better ganks, and better late game?? I mean cmon, its Shen...if you really need early game jungle clear, then buy phage. And any competent jungler knows that if you have slow jungle times, GANK GANK GANK GANK GANK! Especially against a counter jungle champ like Shyvana, Udyr, or Mundo. Speaking of Mundo, why would you build Wriggles on him? He excels as a tank, so why build AD items on him? Why not build towards his amazing health, and health regen??? Seriously man, gimme a *reason why* you should build wriggles on these champions...=P[/quote]