Riven skill order discussion

[quote=The Tasty Pwnz]Many of the guides here on riven suggest that you max Ki Burst (W) first from my understanding, when she was first released this was the preferred way because of the way her damage scaled on it, but after many patches i feel like it is not the optimal way to do things. the way i see it, since leveling this ability will only improve the damage of the spell and not the duration, range or any other property, the only factor we should take into consideration is the damage output. being that riven is very skill and combo dependent, i would assume that that is not the only spell being used by the Riven player in the average engagement. i suggest, that for damage output's sake you max Broken Wings (Q) first, here is my reasoning. whether i am harassing or entering a teamfight with riven early-mid game i will use all 3 casts of Q and my W unless it is interrupted. let's use in-lane harass as an example, i will QQQ in W then E to exit. I do not always stick to this order strictly sometimes using W in between the Q's, and i allow time for auto attacks in between to take advantage of my passive. when entering a teamfight i use a similar approach, granted everything in LoL is situational. but being as Riven's damage will come from the use of her abilities, rather than auto attacks as in the case of an ADC, you will probably burn all your abilities in any extended fight. i do watch other people play riven, people who are admittedly better than i am, and most people use her this way (using all 3 Q's and the W to stun/interrupt during engagements of any size) it just seems to be common sense among people that play her often. here's the math on this combo: (for arguments sake i will take out one broken wings, assuming it is used as a dash to approach the target) [b][u]if we max Q first[/u][/b] [b]at level 4:[/b] 2*(55 + .7*AD) + (50 + 1*AD) = 160 + 2.4*AD [b]at level 7[/b] 2*(105 + .7*AD) + (50 + 1*AD) = 260 + 2.4*AD [b]at level 9 (when first skill can be maxed)[/b] 2*(130 + .7*AD) + (80 + 1*AD) = 340 + 2.4*AD now... [b][u]if we max W first[/u][/b] [b]at level 4[/b] 2*(30 + .7*AD) + (80 + 1*AD) = 140 + 2.4*AD [b]at level 7[/b] 2*(30 + .7*AD) + (140 + 1*AD) = 200 + 2.4*AD [b]at level 9[/b] 2*(55 + .7*AD) + (170 + 1*AD) = 280 + 2.4*AD as you can see, if my math is correct, the damage is greater if you max Broken Wings first. i am interested in hearing people's opinions or reasons for picking W first as i am always looking to get better! keep in mind this is assuming that you are using the first cast of Broken Wings as an approaching dash, or that you miss one during the engagement. if you land all three the difference between the 2 skill orderings is even greater.[/quote]

[quote=animorte]I always max Broken Wings first and Ki Burst second. I only get one point in the shield for the dash and only level it up if I actually need the sustain. I always take advantage of the passive unless I am running away.[/quote]

[quote=Khazem]The reason Ki Burst is often maxed first is to win short trades with your lane opponent, where you use your E to dash in range, auto attack, W for some quick burst damage and while they're stunned you land another auto attack. Broken Wings is then used as a disengage from these short trades. Though in easy match-ups or when you're already ahead of your opponent, you can max Broken Wings first and actually use it as damage cause you will get more overall damage when maxing it first as you've already calculated.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]There is no skill order. Thank me later.[/quote]

[quote=The Tasty Pwnz][quote=Khazem] The reason Ki Burst is often maxed first is to win short trades with your lane opponent, where you use your E to dash in range, auto attack, W for some quick burst damage and while they're stunned you land another auto attack. Broken Wings is then used as a disengage from these short trades. Though in easy match-ups or when you're already ahead of your opponent, you can max Broken Wings first and actually use it as damage cause you will get more overall damage when maxing it first as you've already calculated. [/quote] wouldnt it make just as much sense to use e as your disengage then? not saying you are wrong, just wondering[/quote]

[quote=Luther3000]^ It's nice to have the shield when you're going in rather than when you're going out, and Q also covers more distance which is useful if they try to retaliate or the jungler shows up.[/quote]

[quote=Machineae]I always go W-E-W-Q for my first four and respond accordingly to who I'm laning against. The reason I want W and E early is because of the shield and stun. Its useful for winning early trades. Dash in with E- Auto Attack- W- Auto Attack can do a lot of damage provided you're rune'd accordingly.[/quote]

[quote=animorte][quote=DuffTime] There is no skill order. Thank me later. [/quote] Nicely put.[/quote]

[quote=Embracing]It all depends on who you're laning against. If you are able to force engages max Q If you want standard in-out harass max W and never max e. Only add points as you need them. Maxing W is most standard because most times you arent going to be able to force engages on the enemy.[/quote]

[quote=A Chubby Baby]Q - if you are a man mode person W - if you want CC or just simply E-->W harass combo to do more dmg E - is really dependent, however there's no real reason to max it first.[/quote]