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Soooo Last Whisper vs The Black Cleaver

Creator: NinjaGinge July 20, 2012 2:48am
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NinjaGinge
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So I've been doing theory crafting today (gotta update everything because of that Twitch rework) and I'm afraid I don't understand why people hate on the cleaver. On an adc build you end up dealing more damage at all points of the game until the target has armor in like the mid 100's (certainly to high for non-tanks and sometimes offtanks). The difference in favor of the cleaver becomes WAY greater in the situation in a crit build from both a per/hit perspective and definitely a dps perspective.

I guess there's a little change my math and graphs are wrong but I've done a lot of math and checked it over so I really doubt it.

So does someone want to explain why everyone is all over the Last Whisper? Is this another case of everyone joining in the crowd and refusing to look into other things or is this my mistake?

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The conditions of the battleground are very chaotic and almost never lead to a good testing scenario where you can conclude x is better than y in z conditions.

Here are a few factors that are important to take note.

1.) It is a misconception that you should never focus a tank as an ADC
2.) Items are not the only thing that grant armor (skills, supports, auras)
3.) Attack Speed does not always guarantee you will get more than 1 attack (or 3 in BC case)

Last whisper costs less and there is hardly a situation on an ADC where you can say wow I wish I didn't build Last whisper. It is your reliable friend always there for you.

Reliable, cost efficient damage increase.
Black Cleaver is good too though, especially on Twitch : P
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DuffTime
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Oh my God I'm gonna kill myself.

Team comp. Items built. Champion effects. Skills. Runes.

EVERYTHING FACTORS IN.

It is NOT a choice that can be made when looking at a champion or an item. You need to assess EVERYTHING in order to determine which item is actually better. IT'S NEVER THE SAME, one is ALWAYS better than the other in every different game, or the difference in negligible and it doesn't matter.

THIS IS NOT A LINEAR CONCEPT. Stop treating it like one.

If you don't know which one is better, just build LW. Like Vince said, it will never be bad.
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I'm going to keep my post here blissfully short, but...

NinjaGinge wrote:

The difference in favor of the cleaver becomes WAY greater in the situation in a crit build from both a per/hit perspective and definitely a dps perspective.


This pretty much means you were doing your math wrong. Crit chance and crit damage do not affect the armor value at which LW overtakes TBC.
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The Overmyynd
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I generally tend to grab LW on a normal AD build, and BC for AD-on hit hybrid builds (yes, it exists, i've invented it). Generally good for Master Yi, because lets face it, if ANYONE can guarantee they are going to get at least 3 hits on an enemy, its yi.
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Luther3000
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Not this thread again. >.>
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Luther3000 wrote:

Not this thread again. >.>


We have a search bar for a reason. This has been broken down in many many other threads. Please attempt to find your own solutions before creating a new thread.
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I take sorc shoes over lw or tbc
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Let me do the honor.

Source: http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/pwndo-rocking-it-out-to-pwndoism-updated-113745#chapter19

Quoted:
Let's talk about Last Whisper first:

So this thing goes through 40% of the enemies armor. Alot, you think? WRONG!
Let's compare it to other common and less common Armor pen and shred items, being The Black Cleaver, Zeke's Herald and Youmuu's Ghostblade and the effects on some typical enemies you'll come across...

The Black Cleaver: Shreds up to 45 armor.
Lategame, a glasscannon Graves has 72,6 Armor flat + 30 from max stacks of his passive = 102,6 Armor. The Black Cleaver reduces it to 57,6 Armor. Pretty Decent Reduction.

Now the Last Whisper: grants 40% Armor pen.
Taking Graves 102.6 Armor - 40% of it = 61,56 Armor.

"WUTT?" You may ask. "Cleaver shreds more?" Yes it does. So, when you have to chose between buying The Black Cleaver and Last Whisper, you first need to know the "Sweet Spot" of Last Whisper, when it will penetrate more than Cleaver can shred.

45 Armor Shred of Black Cleaver / 40% Armor Pen of Last whisper = 112,5 Armor

The "Sweet Spot", the exact number of Armor the target must have in order for Last Whisper to be more effective than The Black Cleaver is 112,5 Armor. When the Target has 112.5 Armor or more, it is more beneficial to buy Last Whisper in terms of Armor Pen.

The "Sweet Spot" for Youmuu's Ghostblade is 50 Armor. The target must have 50 or more Armor for Last Whisper to be more effective than Stark's or Ghostblade.


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We have a search bar for a reason. This has been broken down in many many other threads. Please attempt to find your own solutions before creating a new thread.

I sifted for a little while but came primarily across the debate on one particular champion or another. I'll just dig harder next time
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