Mobafire League of Legends Build Guides Mobafire League of Legends Build Guides
's Forum Avatar

Soooo Last Whisper vs The Black Cleaver

Creator: NinjaGinge
July 20, 2012 2:48am
13 posts page 1 of 2 Forums » Theory Crafting & Ideation » Soooo Last Whisper vs The Black Cleaver
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by NinjaGinge » July 20, 2012 2:48am | Report
So I've been doing theory crafting today (gotta update everything because of that Twitch rework) and I'm afraid I don't understand why people hate on the cleaver. On an adc build you end up dealing more damage at all points of the game until the target has armor in like the mid 100's (certainly to high for non-tanks and sometimes offtanks). The difference in favor of the cleaver becomes WAY greater in the situation in a crit build from both a per/hit perspective and definitely a dps perspective.

I guess there's a little change my math and graphs are wrong but I've done a lot of math and checked it over so I really doubt it.

So does someone want to explain why everyone is all over the Last Whisper? Is this another case of everyone joining in the crowd and refusing to look into other things or is this my mistake?
Credit goes to JEFFY40HANDS for this godly imposing Viktor
Hey, you should help me on acquiring Medieval Twitch!! :D
http://signup.leagueoflegends.com/?ref=507f1031d2ab3250817727
NinjaGinge's Forum Avatar

NinjaGinge
<Editor>
Posts: 1000
Joined: May 28th, 2011
Rep: Memorable (90)
Blog   |   Profile
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by Phoenix0000ff » July 20, 2012 3:25am | Report
The conditions of the battleground are very chaotic and almost never lead to a good testing scenario where you can conclude x is better than y in z conditions.

Here are a few factors that are important to take note.

1.) It is a misconception that you should never focus a tank as an ADC
2.) Items are not the only thing that grant armor (skills, supports, auras)
3.) Attack Speed does not always guarantee you will get more than 1 attack (or 3 in BC case)

Last whisper costs less and there is hardly a situation on an ADC where you can say wow I wish I didn't build Last whisper. It is your reliable friend always there for you.

Reliable, cost efficient damage increase.
Black Cleaver is good too though, especially on Twitch : P
Self proclaimed worlds best Jungle Twitch player
You can find my one and only guide here.
I love you.
Phoenix0000ff's Forum Avatar

Awards Showcase
Show more awards
Phoenix0000ff
<Member>
Posts: 557
Joined: Oct 15th, 2011
Rep: Memorable (78)
Blog   |   Profile
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by DuffTime » July 20, 2012 4:13am | Report
Oh my God I'm gonna kill myself.

Team comp. Items built. Champion effects. Skills. Runes.

EVERYTHING FACTORS IN.

It is NOT a choice that can be made when looking at a champion or an item. You need to assess EVERYTHING in order to determine which item is actually better. IT'S NEVER THE SAME, one is ALWAYS better than the other in every different game, or the difference in negligible and it doesn't matter.

THIS IS NOT A LINEAR CONCEPT. Stop treating it like one.

If you don't know which one is better, just build LW. Like Vince said, it will never be bad.
Learn the true S3 op, Tryndamere!
http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/duffs-season-3-hamdamere-296968
Best Aatrox in The world, with a Video Guide!
http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/duffs-336706
Like my official DuffTime Facebook page! http://www.facebook.com/DuffTime
Follow me on Twitter, @RealDuffTime
Come hang out when I'm streaming! http://www.twitch.tv/dufftime
DuffTime's Forum Avatar

Awards Showcase
Show more awards
DuffTime
<Member>
Posts: 12302
Joined: Oct 31st, 2010
Rep: Renowned (670)
Blog   |   Profile
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by lifebaka » July 20, 2012 8:28am | Report
I'm going to keep my post here blissfully short, but...

NinjaGinge wrote:

The difference in favor of the cleaver becomes WAY greater in the situation in a crit build from both a per/hit perspective and definitely a dps perspective.


This pretty much means you were doing your math wrong. Crit chance and crit damage do not affect the armor value at which LW overtakes TBC.
OTGBionicArm wrote: Armored wimminz = badass.

My posts may be long. If this bothers you, don't read them.
lifebaka's Forum Avatar

Awards Showcase
Show more awards
lifebaka
<Scout>
Posts: 1126
Joined: Dec 12th, 2011
Rep: Prominent (151)
Profile
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by The Overmyynd » July 20, 2012 8:52am | Report
I generally tend to grab LW on a normal AD build, and BC for AD-on hit hybrid builds (yes, it exists, i've invented it). Generally good for Master Yi, because lets face it, if ANYONE can guarantee they are going to get at least 3 hits on an enemy, its yi.
Hey, if you liked any advice i gave, be sure to +rep me! Oh, and check out my Shaco and Maokail lorecraft in my Blog! I'm a starving artist in need of attention, so please feel free to read, respond, and critique me! Please? Anybody that leaves a comment (good or bad) will receive a +rep!
The Overmyynd's Forum Avatar

The Overmyynd
<Editor>
Posts: 1406
Joined: Feb 16th, 2012
Rep: Established (139)
Blog   |   Profile
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by Luther3000 » July 20, 2012 8:59am | Report
Not this thread again. >.>
Luther3000's Forum Avatar

Awards Showcase
Show more awards
Luther3000
<Sharpshooter>
Posts: 8046
Joined: Jun 24th, 2011
Rep: Esteemed (440)
Blog   |   Profile
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by BusDriver210 » July 20, 2012 10:17am | Report
Luther3000 wrote:

Not this thread again. >.>


We have a search bar for a reason. This has been broken down in many many other threads. Please attempt to find your own solutions before creating a new thread.
+Rep me if i'm useful!
BusDriver210's Forum Avatar

Awards Showcase
Show more awards
BusDriver210
<Member>
Posts: 906
Joined: Feb 28th, 2011
Rep: Notable (46)
Blog   |   Profile
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by JEFFY40HANDS » July 20, 2012 12:09pm | Report
I take sorc shoes over lw or tbc
JEFFY40HANDS's Forum Avatar

Awards Showcase
Show more awards
JEFFY40HANDS
<Altruistic Artist>
Posts: 9270
Joined: Aug 10th, 2010
Rep: Esteemed (412)
Profile
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by Hateryx » July 20, 2012 12:36pm | Report
Let me do the honor.

Source: http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/pwndo-rocking-it-out-to-pwndoism-updated-113745#chapter19

Quoted:
Let's talk about Last Whisper first:

So this thing goes through 40% of the enemies armor. Alot, you think? WRONG!
Let's compare it to other common and less common Armor pen and shred items, being The Black Cleaver, Zeke's Herald and Youmuu's Ghostblade and the effects on some typical enemies you'll come across...

The Black Cleaver: Shreds up to 45 armor.
Lategame, a glasscannon Graves has 72,6 Armor flat + 30 from max stacks of his passive = 102,6 Armor. The Black Cleaver reduces it to 57,6 Armor. Pretty Decent Reduction.

Now the Last Whisper: grants 40% Armor pen.
Taking Graves 102.6 Armor - 40% of it = 61,56 Armor.

"WUTT?" You may ask. "Cleaver shreds more?" Yes it does. So, when you have to chose between buying The Black Cleaver and Last Whisper, you first need to know the "Sweet Spot" of Last Whisper, when it will penetrate more than Cleaver can shred.

45 Armor Shred of Black Cleaver / 40% Armor Pen of Last whisper = 112,5 Armor

The "Sweet Spot", the exact number of Armor the target must have in order for Last Whisper to be more effective than The Black Cleaver is 112,5 Armor. When the Target has 112.5 Armor or more, it is more beneficial to buy Last Whisper in terms of Armor Pen.

The "Sweet Spot" for Youmuu's Ghostblade is 50 Armor. The target must have 50 or more Armor for Last Whisper to be more effective than Stark's or Ghostblade.


Sole Credits to LaCorpse for this awesome sig!
Hateryx's Forum Avatar

Hateryx
<Member>
Posts: 50
Joined: Jun 23rd, 2012
Rep: Unremarkable (2)
Profile
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by NinjaGinge » July 20, 2012 1:08pm | Report



We have a search bar for a reason. This has been broken down in many many other threads. Please attempt to find your own solutions before creating a new thread.

I sifted for a little while but came primarily across the debate on one particular champion or another. I'll just dig harder next time
Thanks goes to JEFFY40HANDS for a gorgeous Karma sig
Hey, you should help me on acquiring Medieval Twitch!! :D
http://signup.leagueoflegends.com/?ref=507f1031d2ab3250817727
NinjaGinge's Forum Avatar

NinjaGinge
<Editor>
Posts: 1000
Joined: May 28th, 2011
Rep: Memorable (90)
Blog   |   Profile

Quick Reply:

Guest commenting is currently disabled, please log in or sign up to respond!