Flat AD runes ( On Talon )

[quote=Vapora Dark]Interesting. When the season 3 changes were introduced, ArPen was changed so that % ArPen was calculated BEFORE flat ArPen. To stop ArPen runes from being stupidly strong, they nerfed all of them. Before these changes, ArPen runes were king on most champions with high AD scalings, excluding those who did magic damage with those scalings. And after the changes, many people thought they were still the best just because they now synergize with % ArPen, despite their nerf. But is that true...? Since their nerf, I've maintained that they're still better than flat AD on Talon, and I also assumed they did more damage on ADC's on just their auto-attacks. But today, I finally decided to test it, and I had some interesting results. The following was tested on Soraka bot at level 1, with a Long Sword as my item, 21 points in offense in masteries: [h2]AD runes[/h2] [[Rake]] damage: 94 Auto-attack damage: 86 [h2]ArPen runes[/h2] [[rake]] damage: 78 Auto-attack damage: 79 [h2]ArPen marks, flat AD quints[/h2] [[rake]] damage: 86 Auto-attack damage: 82 -------------------------------------------------------- As you can see, ArPen on everything does the least damage; the more flat AD you add to it, the more damage it begins to do. The ArPen changes only benefitted [[the brutalizer]] and [[last whisper]] combinations, the nerfs to ArPen runes made them too weak to compare to flat AD, as much as they synergize with [[last whisper]] now. Even with the synergy, they're still just flat out worse than AD. In conclusion, ArPen runes in season 3 are only strong on champions with good base damage, but very small AD ratios. Had any of you guys realized this, or did you assume ArPen was still strong?[/quote]

[quote=Pølsemanden]Now add a cleaver to that, and the story's suddenly different. Also might i remind you, botrk deals phys damage which is(by how i understand it) affected by arpen.[/quote]

[quote=Joshified][quote=Vapora Dark] In conclusion, ArPen runes in season 3 are only strong on champions with good base damage, but very small AD ratios. [/quote] Exactly right. Champions like [[Jarvan IV]] scale incredibly well with ArPen due to their high base damage. In 'most' situations AD marks and quints are better on a majority of champions. They help with last hitting and early game trading (especially for AD carries) and scale better into the early/mid game. However, ArPen marks generally scale better into late game as the more AD you obtain the more useful the marks become. Though I would definitely go as far to say they seem to be weaker then last season.[/quote]

[quote=Luther3000]You only tested it at level 1. <.< The LW + flat ArP combo is mathematically stronger this season than it was in S2 in the vast majority of circumstances.[/quote]

[quote=lifebaka]Keep in mind, as well, that part of this is that you were doing this to a Soraka Bot (and I assume in a custom game), not a real player. Soraka only has 11.2 level 1 armor. ArPen marks and 21 offense masteries give you a total of 1.28*9 + 6 = 17.52 ArPen, which is more than Soraka has armor. With only 4 ArPen marks, you're already basically doing true damage to her with physical attacks. It's really clear that ArPen quints will deliver less damage, in this case, because you're moving your quints from a stat that you can never have too much of to a stat that you already have too much of (for your test). If you care to, rerun the tests on a Rammus bot, since he has the highest level 1 armor (Taric bot probably won't take W at level 1), or recruit another player to help you get numbers against enemies who you know are using full runes and masteries.[/quote]

[quote=Vapora Dark][quote=lifebaka] Keep in mind, as well, that part of this is that you were doing this to a Soraka Bot (and I assume in a custom game), not a real player. Soraka only has 11.2 level 1 armor. ArPen marks and 21 offense masteries give you a total of 1.28*9 + 6 = 17.52 ArPen, which is more than Soraka has armor. With only 4 ArPen marks, you're already basically doing true damage to her with physical attacks. It's really clear that ArPen quints will deliver less damage, in this case, because you're moving your quints from a stat that you can never have too much of to a stat that you already have too much of (for your test). If you care to, rerun the tests on a Rammus bot, since he has the highest level 1 armor (Taric bot probably won't take W at level 1), or recruit another player to help you get numbers against enemies who you know are using full runes and masteries. [/quote] That's... actually a good point. I did start testing it on another player, but his computer crashed and I couldn't be bothered to find someone else. Fuck. [quote=Luther]You only tested it at level 1. <.< The LW + flat ArP combo is mathematically stronger this season than it was in S2 in the vast majority of circumstances.[/quote] I don't know about that, but assuming I test it on a target who doesn't have such low ArPen that I'm wasting 80% of my runes on and it still comes up with the result that flat AD is stronger than ArPen, then it doesn't really matter if ArPen is stronger now or in season 2. If my test comes up with the same results, then it'll simply be a case of, an AD mark is stronger than an ArPen mark in season 3, regardless of whether ArPen runes and Last Whisper are stronger than they were in season 2. [quote=P0lse]Now add a cleaver to that, and the story's suddenly different. Also might i remind you, botrk deals phys damage which is(by how i understand it) affected by arpen.[/quote] Why does Cleaver change that? And yeah, BotRK is affected by ArPen, but doesn't scale with AD. But whether you take BotRK or not on a champion is your own preference, not gonna say ArPen is better on most champs just because BotRK scales on it. :P Anyways, I was messing around with www.soloqueue.com, a site that calculates damage for you, and flat AD runes on Talon's lvl 5 [[rake]] do more damage than ArPen runes do on a 44 armor enemy, but ArPen does more damage on a 100 armor enemy. I assumed the effectiveness of one would be lowered by armor just as much as the other would, so this thread is pointless now as I don't think it would be very long before ArPen started out-damaging flat AD. >.> brb switching rune pages back.[/quote]

[quote=DarkPercy]No it has always been that way nothing changed. Flat AD is better early, Armor Pen is better late. It literally never changed lol.[/quote]

[quote=NicknameMy]Your calculator calculates the armorpen like in S2, maybe that is the problem?[/quote]