As mean as some of the comments may seem, it really gets frustrating when every other new guide is either plagiarized or so bad it would only work at 400 elo. Time is valuable and I don't have the liberty of sitting around giving detailed analyses for every single new guide that comes out.
I put as much effort into my comments as the guide author puts into his guide. I think this is a good rule of thumb to follow.
In the case that somebody put lots of time into a guide but it still turns out bad due to inadequate game knowledge, it is very likely that their guide will be much better with some helpful advice. If the guide is not spellchecked, not formatted, or has no substance and is just a cheat sheet with bad items, it is clear that any meaningful commentary will likely go to waste as the author is unlikely to heed them.
If the guide author is genuinely demonstrating willingness to improve and learn, I either post a wall of text or drop them a long PM. If they start raging and calling us evil for downvoting like most new authors tend to do, they don't deserve help.
I put as much effort into my comments as the guide author puts into his guide. I think this is a good rule of thumb to follow.
In the case that somebody put lots of time into a guide but it still turns out bad due to inadequate game knowledge, it is very likely that their guide will be much better with some helpful advice. If the guide is not spellchecked, not formatted, or has no substance and is just a cheat sheet with bad items, it is clear that any meaningful commentary will likely go to waste as the author is unlikely to heed them.
If the guide author is genuinely demonstrating willingness to improve and learn, I either post a wall of text or drop them a long PM. If they start raging and calling us evil for downvoting like most new authors tend to do, they don't deserve help.
NewMeta
<Member>
<Member>
Satella wrote:
As mean as some of the comments may seem, it really gets frustrating when every other new guide is either plagiarized or so bad it would only work at 400 elo. Time is valuable and I don't have the liberty of sitting around giving detailed analyses for every single new guide that comes out.
I put as much effort into my comments as the guide author puts into his guide. I think this is a good rule of thumb to follow.
In the case that somebody put lots of time into a guide but it still turns out bad due to inadequate game knowledge, it is very likely that their guide will be much better with some helpful advice. If the guide is not spellchecked, not formatted, or has no substance and is just a cheat sheet with bad items, it is clear that any meaningful commentary will likely go to waste as the author is unlikely to heed them.
If the guide author is genuinely demonstrating willingness to improve and learn, I either post a wall of text or drop them a long PM. If they start raging and calling us evil for downvoting like most new authors tend to do, they don't deserve help.
I agree. I understand how frustrating a lot of the newer guides appear, I look through them almost everyday :P. So yeah, my point is that we need to give those authors that are demonstrating that willingness the chance to improve more. I just don't see that sometimes which is also frustrating, especially when the opposite is shown and people who tried to make a nice guide are harshly criticized when they really shouldn't be. I do agree Satella, thanks for making that point. :)
^ I agree almost wholeheartedly with Satella there. As another thing, most of the time, the person doesn't listen.
So, I've now spent my time typing out my carefully worded response on what I think needs changing, and sometimes it's a major or obvious thing, and they just "lol, noob" it off. Little to no incentive to actually provide criticism if that's how people are going to react.
So, I've now spent my time typing out my carefully worded response on what I think needs changing, and sometimes it's a major or obvious thing, and they just "lol, noob" it off. Little to no incentive to actually provide criticism if that's how people are going to react.
True love is found only in yourself.
I stopped bothering people explaining things because they never listen to me and eventually, after a long discussion of several post, blame it on personal preference. If I think a build is bad, I downvote it, people can PM me and ask me why but I just can't find the energy to point it out anymore.
I'm not someone who gives detailed criticisms on guides, I don't have the knowledge to do so, but I do not think there is any onus on members to give a great deal of guidance to guides that show terrible game knowledge. Why? Because if a guide demonstrates that the author really doesn't know their stuff, then they straight up cannot provide a decent guide. Any attempts to give them constructive criticism only amount to anything if you pretty much write the guide for them.
Where guides are good, show promise, but perhaps have a questionable item or two, valid but sub-optimal runes, or just a lack of detail, they can be improved. The author demonstrates they have the knowledge to not only create, but maintain a decent guide, with a few helping pointers. A person can have a slight lack of knowledge and still be able to create a guide that is their own with constructive comments. Someone who clearly does not know what they are talking about cannot. And even if you spoon-feed them so much that their guide is effectively crowd-sourced, they will not be able to maintain the guide.
I've mostly spoken about players' demonstrating sufficient knowledge to write about a champion, but it also goes for guide-making skills. If a guide is terribly written, even if the facts are right, there's not a great deal you can do to help without spoon-feeding them. The author needs to read appropriate guide making resources and take example from strong guides (of which there are numerous).
TL;DR: some guides are hopeless. You could write it for them by giving long posts, but they will not be able to maintain it. Other guides are lacking but show promise and can be improved, be it slightly or substantially, with constructive criticism.
Where guides are good, show promise, but perhaps have a questionable item or two, valid but sub-optimal runes, or just a lack of detail, they can be improved. The author demonstrates they have the knowledge to not only create, but maintain a decent guide, with a few helping pointers. A person can have a slight lack of knowledge and still be able to create a guide that is their own with constructive comments. Someone who clearly does not know what they are talking about cannot. And even if you spoon-feed them so much that their guide is effectively crowd-sourced, they will not be able to maintain the guide.
I've mostly spoken about players' demonstrating sufficient knowledge to write about a champion, but it also goes for guide-making skills. If a guide is terribly written, even if the facts are right, there's not a great deal you can do to help without spoon-feeding them. The author needs to read appropriate guide making resources and take example from strong guides (of which there are numerous).
TL;DR: some guides are hopeless. You could write it for them by giving long posts, but they will not be able to maintain it. Other guides are lacking but show promise and can be improved, be it slightly or substantially, with constructive criticism.
NewMeta
<Member>
<Member>
Lugignaf wrote:
^ I agree almost wholeheartedly with Satella there. As another thing, most of the time, the person doesn't listen.
So, I've now spent my time typing out my carefully worded response on what I think needs changing, and sometimes it's a major or obvious thing, and they just "lol, noob" it off. Little to no incentive to actually provide criticism if that's how people are going to react.
But is that a reason to not write more carefully worded responses? If the person doesn't refuses your attempts to help them, I just downvote and go on my merry way, if they don't want me help, their guide won't get far. The time thing is a problem because you ARE taking time to try and help this person and they just throw your help in the trash. But if it was me, I'd just say that's they're problem. I do understand where you guys are coming from though and I respect your experience in the matter.
NewMeta
<Member>
<Member>
Kinen wrote:
I'm not someone who gives detailed criticisms on guides, I don't have the knowledge to do so, but I do not think there is any onus on members to give a great deal of guidance to guides that show terrible game knowledge. Why? Because if a guide demonstrates that the author really doesn't know their stuff, then they straight up cannot provide a decent guide. Any attempts to give them constructive criticism only amount to anything if you pretty much write the guide for them.
Where guides are good, show promise, but perhaps have a questionable item or two, valid but sub-optimal runes, or just a lack of detail, they can be improved. The author demonstrates they have the knowledge to not only create, but maintain a decent guide, with a few helping pointers. A person can have a slight lack of knowledge and still be able to create a guide that is their own with constructive comments. Someone who clearly does not know what they are talking about cannot. And even if you spoon-feed them so much that their guide is effectively crowd-sourced, they will not be able to maintain the guide.
I've mostly spoken about players' demonstrating sufficient knowledge to write about a champion, but it also goes for guide-making skills. If a guide is terribly written, even if the facts are right, there's not a great deal you can do to help without spoon-feeding them. The author needs to read appropriate guide making resources and take example from strong guides (of which there are numerous).
TL;DR: some guides are hopeless. You could write it for them by giving long posts, but they will not be able to maintain it. Other guides are lacking but show promise and can be improved, be it slightly or substantially, with constructive criticism.
All I'm asking is that you give the opportunity to those who show that they want your help. If you see that they obviously don't want your help I would be fine with you downvoting and/or not bothering to help at all. This also goes for if the guide seems hopeless; the only thing I would say for those bad guides is to tell the person to just scrap it and start over because it's just not a good start. You're point is extremely valid and that is all I'm asking, all I want if for you to help those who want your help.
"Now this is not just me complaining to you guys. My point is that there is almost no connection between players, there is no friendliness between players. Some of the players in bronze see players who are above them as "lucky" or "not better than them(selves)." This really shows how our community is completely disjointed. Instead of congratulating each other on getting to that next division or that next rank, we instead bad-mouth those who are doing better than us; and we make excuses to support these negative ideas. It also works out vice-versa, many of the players who are in platinum, or gold, or even silver see bronze players as awful or substandard. I'm not saying that bronze players deserve to be in gold, no, I'm saying that instead of degrading us bronze players, why not help us out?"
This is the only paragraph I care about.
I don't really care that I don't have a connection with every single player. I have made dozens of friends on league. Most are knuckledraggers, a large majority IMO. I add people that are good or amuse/entertain me. Do either of those and we can be buds.
I'd be interested in hearing more about bronze mentality. I don't really get the chance to pick bronze players' brains, I'd like to know what the bronze community thinks and talks about.
"many of the players who are in platinum, or gold, or even silver see bronze players as awful or substandard."
Sort of true. Just because I don't think you're very good at this game that doesn't mean that I think you're a bad person, or any less of a human being. You either have ****ty reasoning skills or bad mechanics. W/E, just a game.
"I'm saying that instead of degrading us bronze players, why not help us out?"
Because I don't have the time, really. I get asked EVERY. SINGLE. GAME. I smurf for help. Every time I finish a smurf game, I get like 3-6 friend requests and people beg me for help getting out of bronze. I'm sorry, but I just don't have the time for charity work. If you could ask us some pointed questions, we can help, but most people are just like my teammates suck, elo hell, how do i play this game, etc.
Thoughts?
This is the only paragraph I care about.
I don't really care that I don't have a connection with every single player. I have made dozens of friends on league. Most are knuckledraggers, a large majority IMO. I add people that are good or amuse/entertain me. Do either of those and we can be buds.
I'd be interested in hearing more about bronze mentality. I don't really get the chance to pick bronze players' brains, I'd like to know what the bronze community thinks and talks about.
"many of the players who are in platinum, or gold, or even silver see bronze players as awful or substandard."
Sort of true. Just because I don't think you're very good at this game that doesn't mean that I think you're a bad person, or any less of a human being. You either have ****ty reasoning skills or bad mechanics. W/E, just a game.
"I'm saying that instead of degrading us bronze players, why not help us out?"
Because I don't have the time, really. I get asked EVERY. SINGLE. GAME. I smurf for help. Every time I finish a smurf game, I get like 3-6 friend requests and people beg me for help getting out of bronze. I'm sorry, but I just don't have the time for charity work. If you could ask us some pointed questions, we can help, but most people are just like my teammates suck, elo hell, how do i play this game, etc.
Thoughts?
BOW DOWNBOW DOWN
BOW DOWN
NewMeta
<Member>
<Member>
GrandmasterD wrote:
I stopped bothering people explaining things because they never listen to me and eventually, after a long discussion of several post, blame it on personal preference. If I think a build is bad, I downvote it, people can PM me and ask me why but I just can't find the energy to point it out anymore.
So even when people PM you, asking for advice, you can't find the energy to tell them because you've said the same thing too many times? I guess that makes sense but now you're turning down people who are showing an interest in your opinion. Most of the people who don't care about it will not PM you, thus filtering out some of those people that won't listen to you. If people are PMing you as to why you downvoted, then I think you should tell them. As much as I respect how much of a presence you have here at MOBAfire, you're turning down eager authors just because you don't have the energy to do so. HOWEVER, if lots of those PMs are still from people who don't want your opinion, that is a completely different matter. If you tell them why you downvoted their build and they say that it's just "preference," then you tell them that THEY are the ones who asked YOU for help and that they should at LEAST account for your suggestion in their guide. So although I sort of see you ignoring PMs as wrong, I can see why you're frustrated with those authors that ask for your suggestion and then turn it down.
You need to log in before commenting.
Okay, let's begin. Below is a link to a youtube video made by gbay99. Gbay is a pretty popular League of Legends youtuber who focuses on making videos that teach players how to have the right mindset when going in and while playing a game. In this particular video, gbay answers a question where he talks about what he would change about the league community. I encourage you to watch at least this video of his before looking through my post.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZBcYgChLEQ
Before I go on, I want to point out that I am a bronze league player. My account is ecEnder, you can look me up. I already know for a fact that many of the posts that I make/made/will make will be judged because of this fact; however, I see absolutely no reason why me being in bronze would impact my views on the league community as a whole or even my views on League of Legends gameplay. I say all this because in my post, I will be talking about me being in bronze and I don't want that to be a surprise to people. The fact that I even feel the need to say this proves a couple of my points below.
Now that that's said, let's begin:
As gbay talks about in his video, there are a lot of toxic players in the League of Legends community and there is a lot of separation between players as a whole. One example he gives is that players from different divisions and ranks just don't really like each other. I'm in bronze league, division 3 at the moment. Because I'm in bronze, I am constantly looked down upon because of my gameplay. I am in what people call, "ELO Hell" and it sucks. But what makes it suck is not that I'm playing with people who are on my level of play or lower, it's the sort of attitude that being in bronze creates. Because people look at bronze as a place for the people who are bad, the people in bronze are constantly looking for other people in bronze who are worse than them. This is shown through how people interact with each other in bronze. In 90% of my games, someone in my game will be calling someone else in my game "bad" or "a noob" or "a feeder." This is usually just for the person saying those things to feel a sort of superiority over other players.
Now this is not just me complaining to you guys. My point is that there is almost no connection between players, there is no friendliness between players. Some of the players in bronze see players who are above them as "lucky" or "not better than them(selves)." This really shows how our community is completely disjointed. Instead of congratulating each other on getting to that next division or that next rank, we instead bad-mouth those who are doing better than us; and we make excuses to support these negative ideas. It also works out vice-versa, many of the players who are in platinum, or gold, or even silver see bronze players as awful or substandard. I'm not saying that bronze players deserve to be in gold, no, I'm saying that instead of degrading us bronze players, why not help us out?
So there's a problem that I think we need to solve. However, we can't just magically make everyone nicer, I do realize that. There are always going to be players who are worse than others or inferior to others but that's no reason to make these players feel bad just because of their gameplay level. I just don't want the community to become so bad that newer players are going to just want to quit the game because they don't want to have to deal with someone yelling at them for giving the other team first blood. I don't care if a player is bad, you shouldn't continuously criticize that player in a negative way no matter how bad they are. Instead, just think about how you feel/felt when you were made fun of by people who saw themselves as better than you. Maybe they were better than you, but you didn't need to, nor did you deserve to deal with their snide comments on how you play. So why do that to someone else? Why not just tell that player what they did wrong and how they can maybe fix it? It's really that easy.
But this post's title is not "The League of Legends Community," it's "Our MOBAfire Community." This sort of negative criticism happens all the time here on MOBAfire and none of that criticism is helpful. I've read through plenty of comments that have just said "Bad guide" or "Bad build" or "Cheatsheet is wrong" and that's all that's put in the comment other than a red banner with a -1 in it. Then there are the ones that are like "-1 because of wrong runes" or "-1 Cheatsheet is completely wrong and once I got to the actual guide I couldn't bear to read it because of all the incorrect information." It gets to a point where I just ask myself why these people downvote someone's guide and give absolutely no sort of help to the author. Telling someone that their cheatsheet is wrong is not helping them; telling someone that adding _______ and _______ and _______ to their cheatsheet would make it better because ______________ is soooo much more helpful. You can still downvote if you say that because you told the person WHY you downvoted and HOW they can maybe change your opinion.
So here's what I propose: let's start making the League of Legends community better by first making our own MOBAfire community better. New players visit this website all the time for builds and such and if they see a disjointed community, they won't feel like coming back. However, if they see a connected community, one that has members that help each other out way more than degrade other people's ideas; those visitors are going to want to come back, they may even join. This way, we'll be sort of starting a new generation of community-based players. Players who don't looked down on those who are in a lower league than them or hate the players who are in leagues above them, players who respect each other, players who aren't afraid to step out of the meta every once in a while. What's so bad about having players like that? I know that not everyone's going to be nice, you're always going to have those toxic players. But we can really start to rebuild the MOBA community and maybe even the entire League of Legends community if we just sort of look at the game in an entirely new and different way. It's not a place where we are jealous of those who do better than us, but a place where we respect those who do better than us and help those who have worse gameplay than us. This way, we can create a much more united and friendly community that all players, both new and not-so-new, will want to be a part of.
I'd love to hear some feedback. I want to know if I'm not the only one who feels this way and/or the only one who wants to see some change. Just leave a comment or two and I'll try my best to respond.
Thanks,
NewMeta