throatslasher wrote:
"Now this is not just me complaining to you guys. My point is that there is almost no connection between players, there is no friendliness between players. Some of the players in bronze see players who are above them as "lucky" or "not better than them(selves)." This really shows how our community is completely disjointed. Instead of congratulating each other on getting to that next division or that next rank, we instead bad-mouth those who are doing better than us; and we make excuses to support these negative ideas. It also works out vice-versa, many of the players who are in platinum, or gold, or even silver see bronze players as awful or substandard. I'm not saying that bronze players deserve to be in gold, no, I'm saying that instead of degrading us bronze players, why not help us out?"
This is the only paragraph I care about.
I don't really care that I don't have a connection with every single player. I have made dozens of friends on league. Most are knuckledraggers, a large majority IMO. I add people that are good or amuse/entertain me. Do either of those and we can be buds.
I'd be interested in hearing more about bronze mentality. I don't really get the chance to pick bronze players' brains, I'd like to know what the bronze community thinks and talks about.
"many of the players who are in platinum, or gold, or even silver see bronze players as awful or substandard."
Sort of true. Just because I don't think you're very good at this game that doesn't mean that I think you're a bad person, or any less of a human being. You either have ****ty reasoning skills or bad mechanics. W/E, just a game.
"I'm saying that instead of degrading us bronze players, why not help us out?"
Because I don't have the time, really. I get asked EVERY. SINGLE. GAME. I smurf for help. Every time I finish a smurf game, I get like 3-6 friend requests and people beg me for help getting out of bronze. I'm sorry, but I just don't have the time for charity work. If you could ask us some pointed questions, we can help, but most people are just like my teammates suck, elo hell, how do i play this game, etc.
Thoughts?
Pretty much this, as a mid laner I get friend requests, PMs, etc. and I don't mind that. Though as Throatslasher pointed out, we aren't a charity so I can't and won't spend a huge part of my life just to play games with people to carry them out of 'Elo hell'.
You can always ask me any kind of question and I'll answer it, don't worry but I don't have the time to play with everyone out there.
EDIT: I've played with a bunch of Bronze players, some aren't actually that bad but usually I get those who just refuse to listen. They think they know it all and that's just well, wrong.
NewMeta wrote:
All I'm asking is that you give the opportunity to those who show that they want your help. If you see that they obviously don't want your help I would be fine with you downvoting and/or not bothering to help at all. This also goes for if the guide seems hopeless; the only thing I would say for those bad guides is to tell the person to just scrap it and start over because it's just not a good start. You're point is extremely valid and that is all I'm asking, all I want if for you to help those who want your help.
If someone really does not know their stuff, the best help I can give them is to direct them to a guide by someone who does know their stuff, be it as an exemplar of good guide writing or to to show them what is optimal for the champ in question.
I deleted most of my league "friends" a few months back when I realized they weren't interested in doing anything except invite me to games so I can carry them.
NewMeta
<Member>
<Member>
throatslasher wrote:
"Now this is not just me complaining to you guys. My point is that there is almost no connection between players, there is no friendliness between players. Some of the players in bronze see players who are above them as "lucky" or "not better than them(selves)." This really shows how our community is completely disjointed. Instead of congratulating each other on getting to that next division or that next rank, we instead bad-mouth those who are doing better than us; and we make excuses to support these negative ideas. It also works out vice-versa, many of the players who are in platinum, or gold, or even silver see bronze players as awful or substandard. I'm not saying that bronze players deserve to be in gold, no, I'm saying that instead of degrading us bronze players, why not help us out?"
This is the only paragraph I care about.
I don't really care that I don't have a connection with every single player. I have made dozens of friends on league. Most are knuckledraggers, a large majority IMO. I add people that are good or amuse/entertain me. Do either of those and we can be buds.
I'd be interested in hearing more about bronze mentality. I don't really get the chance to pick bronze players' brains, I'd like to know what the bronze community thinks and talks about.
"many of the players who are in platinum, or gold, or even silver see bronze players as awful or substandard."
Sort of true. Just because I don't think you're very good at this game that doesn't mean that I think you're a bad person, or any less of a human being. You either have ****ty reasoning skills or bad mechanics. W/E, just a game.
"I'm saying that instead of degrading us bronze players, why not help us out?"
Because I don't have the time, really. I get asked EVERY. SINGLE. GAME. I smurf for help. Every time I finish a smurf game, I get like 3-6 friend requests and people beg me for help getting out of bronze. I'm sorry, but I just don't have the time for charity work. If you could ask us some pointed questions, we can help, but most people are just like my teammates suck, elo hell, how do i play this game, etc.
Thoughts?
Thanks for this comment. I'm starting to see this sort of repetition of having to deal with annoying low elo players who are asking the same things. I suppose I'm not saying that you should help these people. The point that I was trying to get to is that some players out there are not going to be the ones who say that their teams always suck or that they need your help to get out of bronze. Some players are actually going to want your suggestion on this build or that champion. I'm not saying that you should go through all your friend reqs and see which ones are genuine, I'm just asking that if you occasionally spot one that seems genuine, that you take a look at it.
The other thing I'm noticing is that all of you who have commented so far are TOP MOBAfire contributors. This is where a problem arises I suppose. You guys are going to be constantly attacked with friend reqs and "get me out of elo hell" reqs. The points that I make in this post only work if people who aren't going to be attacked with those reqs listen to me. You guys are not in bronze so you already don't have to deal with as much negative talk as much as bronze players do. In addition, you've already created a sort of name for yourselves so people know that if they diss you, they'll have to deal with the consequences. The problem that I'm seeing is that too many people who are in these bad positions of being barraged with annoying reqs are reading this and not so many of those people who are actually in bronze or silver are reading this post. I suppose I set my sights way too high but I was hoping for people who are in those lower tiers to see this as well as those who are in upper level play. So I do see where all of you are coming from and I totally respect that, I'm just hoping that people who aren't as popular as you guys are see this, and understand it.
Ummm....about your bronze mentality thing, I'm not sure if that was sarcasm or not because I see a lot of bronze player complaints, but I suppose that's because I'm actually in bronze....In any case, bronze is tough (haha). First of all, you have the majority of toxic players who play this game with you because they rarely win games because of their toxicity, so you gotta deal with that. Second, you're not necessarily good either. You're in bronze so you already know that you're not a top-tier player. Then, you're being put up against people who are also not top-tier players so you have these just weird games with toxic players everywhere. I'm exaggerating a bit but it is pretty much like that, I meant it when I said that 90% of my games are games where I have to deal with toxic players...and it's not fun.
Anyway, thanks for the comment, brought up a lot and made me realize some things. Hopefully I can get more people to read this so I'll get more people who can relate. Again, I do respect where you're coming from and you deserve to be annoyed :P.
NewMeta
<Member>
<Member>
NewMeta wrote:
Thanks for this comment. I'm starting to see this sort of repetition of having to deal with annoying low elo players who are asking the same things. I suppose I'm not saying that you should help these people. The point that I was trying to get to is that some players out there are not going to be the ones who say that their teams always suck or that they need your help to get out of bronze. Some players are actually going to want your suggestion on this build or that champion. I'm not saying that you should go through all your friend reqs and see which ones are genuine, I'm just asking that if you occasionally spot one that seems genuine, that you take a look at it.
The other thing I'm noticing is that all of you who have commented so far are TOP MOBAfire contributors. This is where a problem arises I suppose. You guys are going to be constantly attacked with friend reqs and "get me out of elo hell" reqs. The points that I make in this post only work if people who aren't going to be attacked with those reqs listen to me. You guys are not in bronze so you already don't have to deal with as much negative talk as much as bronze players do. In addition, you've already created a sort of name for yourselves so people know that if they diss you, they'll have to deal with the consequences. The problem that I'm seeing is that too many people who are in these bad positions of being barraged with annoying reqs are reading this and not so many of those people who are actually in bronze or silver are reading this post. I suppose I set my sights way too high but I was hoping for people who are in those lower tiers to see this as well as those who are in upper level play. So I do see where all of you are coming from and I totally respect that, I'm just hoping that people who aren't as popular as you guys are see this, and understand it.
Ummm....about your bronze mentality thing, I'm not sure if that was sarcasm or not because I see a lot of bronze player complaints, but I suppose that's because I'm actually in bronze....In any case, bronze is tough (haha). First of all, you have the majority of toxic players who play this game with you because they rarely win games because of their toxicity, so you gotta deal with that. Second, you're not necessarily good either. You're in bronze so you already know that you're not a top-tier player. Then, you're being put up against people who are also not top-tier players so you have these just weird games with toxic players everywhere. I'm exaggerating a bit but it is pretty much like that, I meant it when I said that 90% of my games are games where I have to deal with toxic players...and it's not fun.
Anyway, thanks for the comment, brought up a lot and made me realize some things. Hopefully I can get more people to read this so I'll get more people who can relate. Again, I do respect where you're coming from and you deserve to be annoyed :P.
****, not deserve to be annoyed, you have the right to be annoyed with those people who are annoying you. THERE! Sorry.....hate when my words get mixed up... o.O
NewMeta
<Member>
<Member>
Kinen wrote:
If someone really does not know their stuff, the best help I can give them is to direct them to a guide by someone who does know their stuff, be it as an exemplar of good guide writing or to to show them what is optimal for the champ in question.
That's fine, just say:
Look at this guide, it shows better (writing/build) that you may want to look at and adapt into your guide.
Or something like that. :P
Kinen wrote:
I'm not someone who gives detailed criticisms on guides, I don't have the knowledge to do so, but I do not think there is any onus on members to give a great deal of guidance to guides that show terrible game knowledge. Why? Because if a guide demonstrates that the author really doesn't know their stuff, then they straight up cannot provide a decent guide. Any attempts to give them constructive criticism only amount to anything if you pretty much write the guide for them.
Where guides are good, show promise, but perhaps have a questionable item or two, valid but sub-optimal runes, or just a lack of detail, they can be improved. The author demonstrates they have the knowledge to not only create, but maintain a decent guide, with a few helping pointers. A person can have a slight lack of knowledge and still be able to create a guide that is their own with constructive comments. Someone who clearly does not know what they are talking about cannot. And even if you spoon-feed them so much that their guide is effectively crowd-sourced, they will not be able to maintain the guide.
I've mostly spoken about players' demonstrating sufficient knowledge to write about a champion, but it also goes for guide-making skills. If a guide is terribly written, even if the facts are right, there's not a great deal you can do to help without spoon-feeding them. The author needs to read appropriate guide making resources and take example from strong guides (of which there are numerous).
TL;DR: some guides are hopeless. You could write it for them by giving long posts, but they will not be able to maintain it. Other guides are lacking but show promise and can be improved, be it slightly or substantially, with constructive criticism.
Here's a question:
If you don't have the knowledge to give criticism on the guide, then what makes you think you have the knowledge to downvote it?
I believe your response is exactly the example the thread needed to point out the flaws in not only the Mobafire site but something more, the Mobafire Network as a whole and all other sites in the "MOBA" community. ARTS games are unique in that they are like a fourth dimensional card game, or advanced game of chess. People pick up a keyboard, sign up on a site, see a guide that they leave a negative impact on without having the insight as to why its actually not a well designed guide.
@Lugignaf: I think its more than just helping their guide when you leave a large sum of knowledge in a post, its helping the user themselves better their own self as a player. Yes, a lot of people do ignore those long comments or even report/attack you personally for downvoting after you leave a comment that's as long as if not longer than the guide itself breaking down every little detail they can improve on. I've been there, it is frustrating, but every user that stops and scrolls through the comment section will see your effort and a lot of users will read it and benefit from it themselves. Also after time you'll see that the other users remember seeing your large and knowledgeable posts and will respect you for it. You have over nine-thousand posts, so I'm sure that it's clear to quite a few people that you know your way around the place, and you just have to live with the sour-apple users.
@GrandmasterD: I can understand that completely, you really think out how to perfect their guide and spend a while wording it out and they will use a cop-out claiming it's for pub-matches or a lower tier, but can't admit that their build(s) itself is inefficient, or that their tactics are risky. The best thing to do is explain to them that its just constructive criticism and be on your merry way, they're the ones that have to justify their guides, and if they can't accept the criticism the first time then very often a rebuttal won't solve it. Just keep moving on to the next guide and if someone actually does find your knowledge helpful, then go more indepth.
NewMeta
<Member>
<Member>
xCO2 wrote:
Here's a question:
If you don't have the knowledge to give criticism on the guide, then what makes you think you have the knowledge to downvote it?
I believe your response is exactly the example the thread needed to point out the flaws in not only the Mobafire site but something more, the Mobafire Network as a whole and all other sites in the "MOBA" community. ARTS games are unique in that they are like a fourth dimensional card game, or advanced game of chess. People pick up a keyboard, sign up on a site, see a guide that they leave a negative impact on without having the insight as to why its actually not a well designed guide.
@Lugignaf: I think its more than just helping their guide when you leave a large sum of knowledge in a post, its helping the user themselves better their own self as a player. Yes, a lot of people do ignore those long comments or even report/attack you personally for downvoting after you leave a comment that's as long as if not longer than the guide itself breaking down every little detail they can improve on. I've been there, it is frustrating, but every user that stops and scrolls through the comment section will see your effort and a lot of users will read it and benefit from it themselves. Also after time you'll see that the other users remember seeing your large and knowledgeable posts and will respect you for it. You have over nine-thousand posts, so I'm sure that it's clear to quite a few people that you know your way around the place, and you just have to live with the sour-apple users.
@GrandmasterD: I can understand that completely, you really think out how to perfect their guide and spend a while wording it out and they will use a cop-out claiming it's for pub-matches or a lower tier, but can't admit that their build(s) itself is inefficient, or that their tactics are risky. The best thing to do is explain to them that its just constructive criticism and be on your merry way, they're the ones that have to justify their guides, and if they can't accept the criticism the first time then very often a rebuttal won't solve it. Just keep moving on to the next people and if someone actually does find your knowledge helpful, then go more indepth.
Wow, thanks for that ^^^. Ummm, as I just said, all these people do have a right to be annoyed. I don't understand why people would argue with them especially due to their high post #s and high Reps and stuff. The people that do want to listen to these higher ELO authors should get the chance that they deserve which is what I was trying to really drive in my original post. The people that don't want to listen to these great authors can just suffer the consequences because they will not be getting any support from people who are just trying to help them if they continuously deny that advice. So yeah all these popular authors have a point, they can't be bothered by annoyance like someone asking them to carry them out of ELO hell. This post was more meant for those people who are not so popular and are still just being jerks on MOBAfire and on League.
xCO2 wrote:
Here's a question:
If you don't have the knowledge to give criticism on the guide, then what makes you think you have the knowledge to downvote it?
I believe your response is exactly the example the thread needed to point out the flaws in not only the Mobafire site but something more, the Mobafire Network as a whole and all other sites in the "MOBA" community. ARTS games are unique in that they are like a fourth dimensional card game, or advanced game of chess. People pick up a keyboard, sign up on a site, see a guide that they leave a negative impact on without having the insight as to why its actually not a well designed guide.
No. I'm sorry, but no. For starters, I said I do not have the knowledge to make detailed criticism. I can and do leave criticisms where I feel I can offer something that is both helpful and worthwhile. My refusal to make extensive, almost review like analysis is a recognition of my limited champion knowledge. As a consumer with a great deal of interest in guides I know just what I am looking for and can comfortably determine whether a guide demonstrates qualities justifying a down-vote, up-vote or judgement reserved until improvements are made.
Furthermore, even where I lack sufficient champion knowledge to be able offer criticism on a good guide, I am perfectly capable of identifying a hopeless guide. There are numerous tells which indicate that someone needs a lot more than a few pointers.
However, that's really all moot. I was not explaining my own guide critiquing and voting, because I'm not heavily involved with that, I was explaining my opinion on guide critiquing in general because I pay a lot of attention to what the various members have to say about guides. Reading guide critiques is very valuable, as much as a guide itself.
[edit] To clarify, I do not downvote a guide just because it has a low rating or because just looks a bit off. I downvote, upvote or don't vote depending on whether a guide meets criteria such as viable (ideally optimal) runes and masteries, flexible and explained build paths, ability usage, sufficient detail on laning, mid-game, team fights and match-ups. Etcetera.
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So even when people PM you, asking for advice, you can't find the energy to tell them because you've said the same thing too many times? I guess that makes sense but now you're turning down people who are showing an interest in your opinion. Most of the people who don't care about it will not PM you, thus filtering out some of those people that won't listen to you. If people are PMing you as to why you downvoted, then I think you should tell them. As much as I respect how much of a presence you have here at MOBAfire, you're turning down eager authors just because you don't have the energy to do so. HOWEVER, if lots of those PMs are still from people who don't want your opinion, that is a completely different matter. If you tell them why you downvoted their build and they say that it's just "preference," then you tell them that THEY are the ones who asked YOU for help and that they should at LEAST account for your suggestion in their guide. So although I sort of see you ignoring PMs as wrong, I can see why you're frustrated with those authors that ask for your suggestion and then turn it down.
I always take the time to answer PMs properly. If people specifically PM me about it, they care, so I will answer all of their questions. Most people are just too stubborn and I just can't care enough to convince them of the error of their ways.