Proof Dominion Wins Are Random

[quote=utopus]In my opinion, skill level doesn't really assert much in terms of someone's ability to make a guide on a topic. In fact, here on mobafire, some of the best guides have been written by silver ELO players. But back to the focus on hand, i'd like to see some mathematical backing that wins are random, before you make such a bold statement[/quote]

[quote=sirell]Sauron has a win difference of +790 wins in Dominion, teams and solo inclusive. Your argument is invalid.[/quote]

[quote=Luther3000][quote=Xander756] The guy that wrote that is not a very good player, and he is Silver ranked. http://penguinrungames.com/images/koravel.png [/quote] One could make the same argument about your articles. [url=http://i.imgur.com/ZvUjhz6.png]I can lolking people too.[/url] So I've been reading this thread since it was made thinking about how to adequately respond to it. The simple fact is that all your arguments are incredibly biased or nonsensical, feauturing anecdotal evidence and bad logic that would apply to any game mode. Do you realize that the purpose of matchmaking is to bring every player to as close to 50% win rate as possible? In ranked even pro players at the highest reaches of diamond 1 and challenger will only end up with around a 55% winrate tops. Not going to lie, I fucking lost my shit when you began analysing a [i]tiny[/i] sample size of your own game stats as if it had any meaning whatsoever. Every argument you made in this section (players losing despite their good score) applies equally to every game mode. It's really just the same old whining about Elo hell shit masquerading as an informative text. Your scientific source, whilst an interesting obfuscation, has absolutely no bearing upon the topic because both teams are on a completely balanced footing in Dominion. Here is a very simple mathematical excercize that proves matchmaking and MMR is not random at all. Assume that you are a good player. This means that in all of the games you play the number of teammates that can potentially be bad/afk/trolling is 4/5. The number of enemies that can potentially be bad/afk/trolling is 5/5. Play enough games, and you will always eventually reach the skill level that you belong at. There are certainly many elements of randomness but to describe matchmaking as a slot machine or a coin flip is complete bullshit. To sum up, it's a poorly written piece of crap and from what I remember the previous articles you linked here a year ago were no better (I noticed that you got fired from that website, incidentally). Frankly it makes me pretty sad that you are (I assume) employed as a professional writer when most of your stuff is written like this and is palpably just the result of you raging over losing some games. I'm pretty sure I could do better myself. I doubt that you give a damn what I think, but there you go. :^)[/quote]

[quote=Jimmydoggga 2.0]This is what happens when people try and write topical articles, that just happen to be based on LoL. Because cynically, who's going to read an article on how LoL is totally unbiased? I think the Thresh and Fizz articles are probably the best example of this, mostly because where are all the other god tiers amirite? [quote=sirell] Sauron has a win difference of +790 wins in Dominion, teams and solo inclusive. Your argument is invalid. [/quote] Chuck Norris has a 45% W/L ratio, so your argument is?[/quote]

[quote=sirell][quote=Jimmydoggga 2.0] This is what happens when people try and write topical articles, that just happen to be based on LoL. Because cynically, who's going to read an article on how LoL is totally unbiased? I think the Thresh and Fizz articles are probably the best example of this, mostly because where are all the other god tiers amirite?[/quote] I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but it's conceivable that people want to just read the facts instead of getting biased bullcrap. As for God tiers, in the current meta where we actually don't have enough bans to ban out champions, are you seriously asking where all the other God tiers are? [quote=Jimmydoggga 2.0] Chuck Norris has a 45% W/L ratio, so your argument is? [/quote] Can't even begin to tell what the relevance here is. OP claims that Dominion is random. It is a counter-example that it clearly is not. Again, can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, or whether you simply did not understand the finer nuances.[/quote]

[quote=Jimmydoggga 2.0]2nd bits sarcastic. 1st bit isn't sarcastic, because back when those guides were written in S3, those champs showed up in the LCS all the time, and because unbiased facts about how Thresh is actually a perfectly reasonable champion are not very interesting, unless you write guides or something.[/quote]

[quote=Xander756][quote=Luther3000] [quote=Xander756] The guy that wrote that is not a very good player, and he is Silver ranked. http://penguinrungames.com/images/koravel.png [/quote] One could make the same argument about your articles. [url=http://i.imgur.com/ZvUjhz6.png]I can lolking people too.[/url] So I've been reading this thread since it was made thinking about how to adequately respond to it. The simple fact is that all your arguments are incredibly biased or nonsensical, feauturing anecdotal evidence and bad logic that would apply to any game mode. Do you realize that the purpose of matchmaking is to bring every player to as close to 50% win rate as possible? In ranked even pro players at the highest reaches of diamond 1 and challenger will only end up with around a 55% winrate tops. Not going to lie, I fucking lost my shit when you began analysing a [i]tiny[/i] sample size of your own game stats as if it had any meaning whatsoever. Every argument you made in this section (players losing despite their good score) applies equally to every game mode. It's really just the same old whining about Elo hell shit masquerading as an informative text. Your scientific source, whilst an interesting obfuscation, has absolutely no bearing upon the topic because both teams are on a completely balanced footing in Dominion. Here is a very simple mathematical excercize that proves matchmaking and MMR is not random at all. Assume that you are a good player. This means that in all of the games you play the number of teammates that can potentially be bad/afk/trolling is 4/5. The number of enemies that can potentially be bad/afk/trolling is 5/5. Play enough games, and you will always eventually reach the skill level that you belong at. There are certainly many elements of randomness but to describe matchmaking as a slot machine or a coin flip is complete bullshit. To sum up, it's a poorly written piece of crap and from what I remember the previous articles you linked here a year ago were no better (I noticed that you got fired from that website, incidentally). Frankly it makes me pretty sad that you are (I assume) employed as a professional writer when most of your stuff is written like this and is palpably just the result of you raging over losing some games. I'm pretty sure I could do better myself. I doubt that you give a damn what I think, but there you go. :^) [/quote] Yes and when you lolking me you see that I'm 91/24/101 in my last 10 games. That lolking match history indicates I suck? I don't think you can make the same argument by looking me up LMAO but nice try. Oh so you think I wrote Dominion is a Slot Machine because I was losing games? I guess you didn't read the full article because there is a disclaimer at the end which states: "at the time of this writing I am 102/13/88 with 93 captures and 59 neutralizations in my last 10 games played. I have a 7-3 record in my last 10 games so this article is not just some angry rant resulting from me getting beaten" Next time actually read the article first before replying in an attempt to refute it. Otherwise you make a fool out of yourself.[/quote]

[quote=Luther3000]That's some truly beautiful hypocrisy. You didn't reply to 80% of what I said and completely missed the point of the other 20%. Someone here is making a fool out of himself, but it ain't me bud.[/quote]

[quote=Meiyjhe]Dominion is a very teamdepending mode, probably even more so than in SR. This means that the outcome of the game is indeed heavily influenced by the teammates you will get. However, just like in SR, you are 20% of your team. If you function really well, if you cap a lot of points and deny a lot of enemy captures, then you can indeed have a big positive impact on the outcome of the game. Does this mean you always win? No. Does this mean you win more in general? Yes. So does that mean that the outcome is random? No. If you do have influence on the outcome of the game, then the outcome isn't random. This is because randomness means that there is no pattern in the outcome, it means that everyone has just as big of a chance to win, in this case. That is not true, you yourself stated if you stand still in a match then you are going to lose, because then it isn't random. So the same should count if you carry your team to victory, then it also isn't random. You classify good dominion plays as: "Never dying" "high scores" Whereas dominion is more than just that. Actually, high scores and low deaths are just a small part of the whole dominion scene. Capturing points and maintaining them, THAT is what wins you games. Defending points is not something that is visible in your scores, only as "points" in general. In order to bring real proof, you must show analyses of full games, games where people win, games where people lose. Fully analyse those games how much they cap points and how long they maintain them. Then you upload a few example video's and point those things out. Then you have real proof. tldr; Dominion wins aren't random. The proof you have is basically directed to: "Dominion is heavily team dependant", which is very true indeed.[/quote]

[quote=Xander756][quote=Meiyjhe] Dominion is a very teamdepending mode, probably even more so than in SR. This means that the outcome of the game is indeed heavily influenced by the teammates you will get. However, just like in SR, you are 20% of your team. If you function really well, if you cap a lot of points and deny a lot of enemy captures, then you can indeed have a big positive impact on the outcome of the game. Does this mean you always win? No. Does this mean you win more in general? Yes. So does that mean that the outcome is random? No. If you do have influence on the outcome of the game, then the outcome isn't random. This is because randomness means that there is no pattern in the outcome, it means that everyone has just as big of a chance to win, in this case. That is not true, you yourself stated if you stand still in a match then you are going to lose, because then it isn't random. So the same should count if you carry your team to victory, then it also isn't random. You classify good dominion plays as: "Never dying" "high scores" Whereas dominion is more than just that. Actually, high scores and low deaths are just a small part of the whole dominion scene. Capturing points and maintaining them, THAT is what wins you games. Defending points is not something that is visible in your scores, only as "points" in general. In order to bring real proof, you must show analyses of full games, games where people win, games where people lose. Fully analyse those games how much they cap points and how long they maintain them. Then you upload a few example video's and point those things out. Then you have real proof. tldr; Dominion wins aren't random. The proof you have is basically directed to: "Dominion is heavily team dependant", which is very true indeed. [/quote] Yes and the teammates you get via matchmaking are random. Either randomly good or randomly bad or randomly trolls or randomly afkers. That's why it says in the first paragraph the more people in your pre-made party you go into matchmaking with, the more you reduce the factor of randomness and when you have a full five man pre-made, it's not random at all and the better team will win.[/quote]