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We already have a separate gun thread, dear mobafirians. It's in what was supposed to be the school shootings thread.
Could you give an estimation of how many people having a job in the police sector are to blame for these three shootings, in your eyes?
If you say "all of them" or "a lot", I'll say it's a cultural issue and then it won't be the fault of the police sector but of society. If you say "very little of them", I say it's not the fault of the police sector but of those three people.
And then we're not even discussing if the shooting was rectified or not. If you say it wasn't rectified, then you're blaming the law or legal system, which brings us back to a cultural issue. If you say it's rectified then those people aren't to blame.
Could you give an estimation of how many people having a job in the police sector are to blame for these three shootings, in your eyes?
If you say "all of them" or "a lot", I'll say it's a cultural issue and then it won't be the fault of the police sector but of society. If you say "very little of them", I say it's not the fault of the police sector but of those three people.
And then we're not even discussing if the shooting was rectified or not. If you say it wasn't rectified, then you're blaming the law or legal system, which brings us back to a cultural issue. If you say it's rectified then those people aren't to blame.
********'s a pretty good fertilizer
I can't estimate, noone can actually.
It's those 3 who pulled the trigger and the ones who did not ban the from being police officers. Regarding the second part, it can be a trainer/a chief who did not do his job properly, the whole training course and evaluation system or most likely both of the above. As a consequence the police sector is partially to blame as well, do you diagree? If you do, then you are actually implying that the U.S. police is working fine, which admittedly is false.
Also how the heck can it be the society's fault that a 18 year old guys got killed for stealing cigarretes?
And as a I mentioned above, I have problems both with the legal and parts of the security system(aka police).
It's those 3 who pulled the trigger and the ones who did not ban the from being police officers. Regarding the second part, it can be a trainer/a chief who did not do his job properly, the whole training course and evaluation system or most likely both of the above. As a consequence the police sector is partially to blame as well, do you diagree? If you do, then you are actually implying that the U.S. police is working fine, which admittedly is false.
Also how the heck can it be the society's fault that a 18 year old guys got killed for stealing cigarretes?
And as a I mentioned above, I have problems both with the legal and parts of the security system(aka police).
May be. But a cultural issue invloves several aspects and in this case police is partially responsible too, whether it be certain police men or the organization and general tactics of the police.
Yet, I do not see how it is a cultural issue, especially since the majority of people are up in arms about these incidents and are demonstrating against them.
And really, how did you draw the conclusion that that it is a cultural issues. I did not say "a lot of police officers are to blame for that", I mentioned that the amount of how many are directly or indirectly involved in this cannot be estimated. I just wrote who could be held responsible for the shootings(not the getting round punishment thing), from my point of view.
You clearly interpreted that wrongly.
Yet, I do not see how it is a cultural issue, especially since the majority of people are up in arms about these incidents and are demonstrating against them.
And really, how did you draw the conclusion that that it is a cultural issues. I did not say "a lot of police officers are to blame for that", I mentioned that the amount of how many are directly or indirectly involved in this cannot be estimated. I just wrote who could be held responsible for the shootings(not the getting round punishment thing), from my point of view.
You clearly interpreted that wrongly.
TROLLing1999 wrote:
May be. But a cultural issue invloves several aspects and in this case police is partially responsible too, whether it be certain police men or the organization and general tactics of the police.
Yet, I do not see how it is a cultural issue, especially since the majority of people are up in arms about these incidents and are demonstrating against them.
And really, how did you draw the conclusion that that it is a cultural issues. I did not say "a lot of police officers are to blame for that", I mentioned that the amount of how many are directly or indirectly involved in this cannot be estimated. I just wrote who could be held responsible for the shootings(not the getting round punishment thing), from my point of view.
You clearly interpreted that wrongly.
Yet, I do not see how it is a cultural issue, especially since the majority of people are up in arms about these incidents and are demonstrating against them.
And really, how did you draw the conclusion that that it is a cultural issues. I did not say "a lot of police officers are to blame for that", I mentioned that the amount of how many are directly or indirectly involved in this cannot be estimated. I just wrote who could be held responsible for the shootings(not the getting round punishment thing), from my point of view.
You clearly interpreted that wrongly.
Until now you pretty much started referring to the whole, then to a "partly" and then to a "cannot be described". Though this issue can be easily appointed to those who were involved in these crimes. Thus saying "The police officers and judges that were involved in these shootings were at fault" would be more appropriate than "**** the police" or "The U.S.A. police is working really really well(sarcasm)". The last two points the finger to a whole system instead of a number of individuals.
Change is gooooood
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Meiyjhe wrote:
As I understand, the issue here isn't the interpretation, it is the argumentation. If things are inappropriately explained then it is only logical that people interpretate it in a way that you didn't mean it.
Until now you pretty much started referring to the whole, then to a "partly" and then to a "cannot be described". Though this issue can be easily appointed to those who were involved in these crimes. Thus saying "The police officers and judges that were involved in these shootings were at fault" would be more appropriate than "**** the police" or "The U.S.A. police is working really really well(sarcasm)". The last two points the finger to a whole system instead of a number of individuals.
Until now you pretty much started referring to the whole, then to a "partly" and then to a "cannot be described". Though this issue can be easily appointed to those who were involved in these crimes. Thus saying "The police officers and judges that were involved in these shootings were at fault" would be more appropriate than "**** the police" or "The U.S.A. police is working really really well(sarcasm)". The last two points the finger to a whole system instead of a number of individuals.
The "cannot be described" does not neccessarily negate the "partly". I said that you cannot point out names or positions or even count the responsible people with any accuracy because the system itself is responsible as well. This, however, does not mean that it shouldn't be acknowledged that certain parts of the police are disfunctional.
For instance, it's almost impossible to say with accuracy how many % of the society are, let's say racists, but you cannot also totally deny their existance.
On another note, you cannot relate the situation to just the 3 cops and the judges because far more are indirectly responsible for this, especially as long as we are talking about 3 consecutive killings. Obama ,for instance, is also to blame, as far as I can see.
TROLLing1999 wrote:
The "cannot be described" does not neccessarily negate the "partly". I said that you cannot point out names or positions or even count the responsible people with any accuracy because the system itself is responsible as well. This, however, does not mean that it shouldn't be acknowledged that certain parts of the police are dysfunctional.
For instance, it's almost impossible to say with accuracy how many % of the society are, let's say racists, but you cannot also totally deny their existance.
For instance, it's almost impossible to say with accuracy how many % of the society are, let's say racists, but you cannot also totally deny their existance.
Same can be done in the example of the police although it would require, just as in the racism example, a bit of further research. You would need to go deeper into the subject, see who did what wrong and why. Then based on that analysis you can say whether the policemen were to blame, whether the system was to blame or that everything was just accidental.
Quoted:
This, however, does not mean that it shouldn't be acknowledged that certain parts of the police are disfunctional.
Surely there are some parts in the police forces that are dysfunctional, but that is in every group and organisation the case. The question is: What/who dysfunctions, how large is this dysfunction, why does it dysfunction and how can we fix that? In this case it seems you aren't exactly sure what/who dysfunctions. The only thing you say dysfunctions are the ones responsible without actually pointing out who is responsible exactly. So instead you point out to the whole andwhile referring that it is partly wrong, which is not helping anyone out. It might actually do the opposite; people might mistake you for blaming a whole causing people either to learn false things from your side. That is why it is important to point out who exactly you mean. If you do not know what exactly is wrong, then that is fine, but then also don't blame the system.
Change is gooooood
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I don't want to compliment myself but I already gave you a reaction to all your reactions in my last post. In none of the scenarios was the police at fault.
Basically I would say the circle goes this way: society -> law -> society -> law et cetera. It's not a circle right now but it would be if I was an amazing ASCII artist.
The arrow from law to society is partly represented by the police. The police does not influence society. Law influences society through the police. To say it in a trias politica way, the police is an executive force and therefore only does what others instruct.
If you say those shootings aren't right, it's law's fault. Law is made by society. So it's a problem of the society, a cultural problem.
To say it more bluntly, the police is merely doing its job.
If those shootings were indeed illegal, then the judicial system is in the wrong and you should blame that.
TROLLing1999 wrote:
But a cultural issue invloves several aspects and in this case police is partially responsible too, whether it be certain police men or the organization and general tactics of the police.
The arrow from law to society is partly represented by the police. The police does not influence society. Law influences society through the police. To say it in a trias politica way, the police is an executive force and therefore only does what others instruct.
If you say those shootings aren't right, it's law's fault. Law is made by society. So it's a problem of the society, a cultural problem.
To say it more bluntly, the police is merely doing its job.
If those shootings were indeed illegal, then the judicial system is in the wrong and you should blame that.
********'s a pretty good fertilizer
This is the most unorthodox way to look at it. You are basically implying that police is working fine, even though it isn't given the latest incidents.
You also missed a very important and deciding point. Laws do not only regulate the citizens' actions but thete ate specific sets of laws, whose aim is to set restrictions to police officers. The guys who pulled the trigger broke these laws. That is why those 3 cops are responible.
Equally accountat for these things are the people responsible for creating and controlling the evaluation and training system of the police forces. One should have ensured that unsuitable people should not be cops.
This particular sector is operating independently. Thus parts of the police's system are to blame as well.
Not to mention that these actions were against the basic constitutonal values and the globally recognised human right to life.
Referring to the problem as a cultural issue is only functioning as a way to hide the problems rather than face up to them.
You also missed a very important and deciding point. Laws do not only regulate the citizens' actions but thete ate specific sets of laws, whose aim is to set restrictions to police officers. The guys who pulled the trigger broke these laws. That is why those 3 cops are responible.
Equally accountat for these things are the people responsible for creating and controlling the evaluation and training system of the police forces. One should have ensured that unsuitable people should not be cops.
This particular sector is operating independently. Thus parts of the police's system are to blame as well.
Not to mention that these actions were against the basic constitutonal values and the globally recognised human right to life.
Referring to the problem as a cultural issue is only functioning as a way to hide the problems rather than face up to them.
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I hope you read how I wrote "parts of the police" or "partially" or "some" just for the sake of not generalizing. And anyways there are more than 3 people(the murderers) who are responsible for the situation, at least to some extent.
More of the second than of the 1st, at least given America's overprotective stance towards guns(the gun lobby). Controlling who holds the gun actually is more possible than entirely regulating/forbidding gun possession among citizens or cops in a country where guns are no doubt part of their culture.