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Don't level 1 invades kind of go against the...

Creator: Vapora Dark April 17, 2016 8:25am
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Do you agree?
Vapora Dark
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I'll preface this by saying that this isn't based on anything that's happened recently, it's just something I think about every now and again and was considering bringing up. In general I have nothing against tryhardy behaviour in inhouses; if everyone tryhards then no one can complain about other people tryharding against them.

It also makes balancing much harder/sometimes pointless when you don't know who's going to play normally and who's going to intentionally handicap themselves to playing at their 30-70%, so in general I would much rather everyone tryhards than having a mix of the two.

But level 1 invades, even by my book, are a little too tryhardy for inhouses, in my opinion. By level 1 invades I'm referring to when 5 members of one team run into the enemy jungle trying to catch someone for an easy first blood. The issue I have with this isn't even really with it being "tryhardy", it's that it's just plain dirty. The entire idea behind this kind of invade is that you hope to catch out someone that's distracted/alt tabbed/afk (mainly the 2nd and 3rd) and CC'ing and bursting them to death before they can realize what's going on and do something about it.

It's normal in inhouses to pause the game when someone has to go afk temporarily or when someone's going through a particularly bad lag spike/DC. When you notice that an enemy is clearly DC'd or not there, you would generally pause the game or ignore them rather than immediately go kill them for free gold. So why is it that a strategy that revolves entirely around killing people that are afk in the first minute of the game is accepted?

On EUW at least, invades are kind of a meme at this point and you know that if a team has either Joxuu or Penguin, they're almost certainly going to invade, so we're used to paying attention and watching out for invades in the first minute of the game more than we would even in ranked games, but every now and again someone will inevitably be distracted, or forget and think it's fine to go afk to quickly get a drink/go pee, and when the invading team runs into one of these afk players they will kill them because that's what they were hoping to find in the first place.

Is that kind of move really fair? I don't think having a strategy that revolves around killing afk enemies should mean you get to ignore the fact that you're not meant to kill afks. It's all fine and dandy in ranked or normals when you really want to win or have fun even at the expense of the enemy team's fun, but in inhouses I wouldn't consider that fair play. Otherwise why not just engage on Hopper every time she suddenly stops moving?

While you can certainly just shift the blame onto the people that are afk/alt tabbed at level 1 saying they should know better, that they made a mistake and got punished for it, I personally don't think that's enough justification to run around the enemy jungle at level 1 hunting down afks for free kills.

Thoughts?

Note that I'm not saying we should ban invades, in the sense that we'd punish any players who invade at level 1, but rather that if others here are in agreement with me, then we make sure inhouse players know that invading is "heavily discouraged" in inhouses, for the reasons mentioned here. There'd be nothing stopping people from still invading, but I don't think any of the regulars are big enough *******s to still do it anyway.

And nor do I think the people calling for invades have ill intentions, just that they're not considering how frustrating and obnoxious it can be if you're the team that gets invaded against and your afk gives up first blood. No one likes having to lane against an enemy that walks into lane with two items at level 1 because they got first blood on your ADC while he was afk.
Luther3000
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep April 17, 2016 9:19am | Report
> Says level 1 invades go against the spirit of inhouses

> Laneswaps repeatedly

????

(Might post serious reply later but had to get in the dank meme)
FalseoGod
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1) Regarding invades: I don't get why we should be judging this by your book. From what I recall, every single lane swap in the past 3 months were your suggestion and usually involved boning the enemy toplaner and making their entire game experience ****ty since your team expected the lane swap and theirs didn't, and that's nastier than invades, it's deliberately crippling a player while boosting your own power through a smoother lanephase. I can't understand how this wasn't a concern for you, but invades are. It's not the invader's fault that people aren't paying attention during inhouses, and yes I've been invaded in the past and even this friday had to blow a flash because of it.

If invades are kind of a meme, that makes them even less of a problem since you should be expecting them 100% by now, which placate the issue even more. It's not even tryhard since it being expected = someone having the countermeasures for it (wards/appropriate positioning). If someone afk's/goes pee and doesn't warn people dying in the process, it's pretty much their own fault regardless of you thinking it's "unfair" or "tryhard". You can pause if you have to go.

2) Blocking/limiting the oh-so awful “invading tryhardom” is pretty ******** because anyone who is on TS and paying attention to all chat can read people making fun of the situation or hearing them laughing. This is even more obvious since the last two weeks of inhouses had people from both teams sharing TS rooms saying “we’re invading” and laughing over the whole ordeal. In fact, I can’t recall one single game where invading resulted in a hopeless situation for the team getting invaded in terms of lane phase or game result itself. I can barely even recall it resulting in kills.

3) I find it ludicrous that you, of all people, are calling out what's "obnoxious" or "unfair". From killing MyNameLeftMe after we paused due to him being afk and stating it on all chat, to accidently leeching exp from Polse's joke suicide to tower and boning him due to lead and lane advantage in picks, ranging to complaining that you get "Invaded as a jungler" after a game where you basically stood in LevasK's jungle 24/7, to your lane swap calls, to ganking the same lane 3 times in 5 minutes (and these are what I remember) it's hillarious that the one type of "tryhardom" that you can't really control is what bugs you. And do note, this is not about "being tryhard": it's about you complaining about one of the least worrysome issues in inhouses, which literally only leads to first blood every 1-10 games and more often than not only originates all chat nonsense. In fact, even when flashes are blown seldom do these laners get punished.

tl;dr why is this being presented as a problem?

TheRedPenguin
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This will be off-topic.

What does "spirit of the inhouses" mean for you? Since I have no idea what that is or if it even exists.
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1) I know I don't play in inhouses as often as I used to anymore, but for the life of me I can't remember an AFK player being killed during a lvl 1 invade. Not even once. Am I missing something here?

2) If we're going to accept that EUW inhouses are pretty tryhard (which I feel people have done at this point), I don't see why invades should ever be disallowed. If a team recognises that they have a strong level 1, why wouldn't they try to make use of that? Similarly, what is stopping the enemy team from placing defensive wards or even copying the exact invade they expect the enemy team is trying on them (i.e. both teams invade blue and end up trading buffs)?

When it comes to having fun, I agree laneswaps are a bigger issue to deal with (and even then I'm not sure I'd vote to disallow those).

Thanks to MissMaw for the signature!
LimitlessHavoc
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep April 17, 2016 11:57am | Report
tfw you cant vote cos vapora isnt senpai
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mastrer1000
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tfw you cant vote cos vapora isnt senpai

the second answer, "No Vapora senpai", clearly states that there is no such thing as a vapora senpai, so you should prohably be using that one
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Because it's not about stronger level 1s, it's about "hey guys let's all run through the jungle grouped as 5 and see if we can find anyone to 1-shot for first blood, we have the advantage because we're going out of our way to coordinate this move while they're probably alt tabbed while they wait for the game to properly start when minions spawn".
Is killing DC's really less sportsmanlike than going out of your way to kill people that you hope are not actively playing the game at that moment?

Ehm, wat.

Maybe that's what it seems like to you, but I can assure you that thought has never even once crossed my mind, and I've been part of plenty of invades. I'm also fairly certain that Joxuu and Penguin (the two main initiators of invades, as you mentioned) don't think that way, so I honestly struggle to see how you reached this conclusion.

I mean, you even - rightfully - mentioned that we make sure not to kill people who are afk or having issues (in general), so why would the mindset for invades be the complete opposite of that? That makes very little sense to me.

If anything, the most logical solution in my eyes would be to let people know that they should pay attention once the game starts. God knows we already spend more than enough time balancing (which people can use to take care of small stuff), and if anything serious happens after that the pause function still exists.

Thanks to MissMaw for the signature!
Embracing
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Vapora Dark
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Wayne3100 wrote:
Maybe that's what it seems like to you, but I can assure you that thought has never even once crossed my mind, and I've been part of plenty of invades. I'm also fairly certain that Joxuu and Penguin (the two main initiators of invades, as you mentioned) don't think that way, so I honestly struggle to see how you reached this conclusion.

Of course I don't mean that it's their actual thought process when organizing invades, but it's basically what a level 1 invade tactic narrows down to. Are level 1 5 man invades at all useful if a team is covering and warding at lvl 1? No, you'd get seen very early on and your best hope is Flash Rocket Grab or Flash Death Sentence, and even then you're really stretching if you expect to get a kill that way.

So what's the point in doing it? Well not everyone actually does those things, because you wouldn't usually expect any kind of action to start so early on. I know I'm guilty of often just buying my items at lvl 1, right clicking towards my tower and browsing reddit or watching a video until 1:30 before I go leash golems. And I've also immediately ran towards the tribrush and covered as I was meant to, and eventually been ganked by 5 people from behind because other people on my team weren't covering and they went through our entire jungle and found me on their way out.

If it were purely an issue of people not being smart enough to cover/ward then I would agree, they're playing badly and that can be punished. But the way I see it is if someones not covering it's usually because they're alt tabbed or doing something else while they wait for minions to spawn, they're not playing badly because they're not playing at all, and that's what invades rely on.


Wayne3100 wrote:
If anything, the most logical solution in my eyes would be to let people know that they should pay attention once the game starts. God knows we already spend more than enough time balancing (which people can use to take care of small stuff), and if anything serious happens after that the pause function still exists.

The reason why that doesn't work IMO is because, theoretically if you force everyone to pay attention and cover and ward, invades become obsolete because they never work. People stop bothering invading and people get tired of sitting there watching out for invades that never come. They stop paying attention and voilà; people are relaxing and alt tabbing before minions spawn and suddenly invades actually work again. Back to hunting down afks/punishing people who are vulnerable because their team mate is sitting at a tower instead of covering an entrance.

It's silly to force people to watch the game and pay attention if nothing's going to happen at that stage of the game, and it's silly to go round trying to kill someone that's alt tabbed because they're used to nothing happening. In ranked, alright everything's fair, you're trying your hardest to win and nothing's going to stop you. If an enemy DC's you're going to kill them. Unlucky. If an enemy is alt tabbed chatting on Skype and you happen to invade you're going to kill them. Unlucky.

I'm definitely not referring to Joxuu going into the enemy TS and shouting "WE'RE INVADING", and I'm not even saying these more serious invades are frequent in inhouses. But they do happen. The question, should we be doing serious invades at all in an environment where we forgive DC's/AFK's?


Wayne3100 wrote:
I mean, you even - rightfully - mentioned that we make sure not to kill people who are afk or having issues (in general), so why would the mindset for invades be the complete opposite of that? That makes very little sense to me.

Here's me, covering tri, and I'm alt tabbed browsing reddit because the enemy team's probably not going to invade anyway.



As the invading team, if you run in the brush and see me standing there, are you going to kill me or let me live? Obviously you're going to kill me, because otherwise you wouldn't have bothered invading. Targets like myself are exactly what you want to invade for.

That's what I mean. In any other circumstance, you see an afk and you do the honourable thing, let them live. But in invades, you're so used to seeing it used as a legit strat in normal and ranked games that you forget that the whole point of doing it is to abuse afks - which you otherwise stay clear from in inhouses.

It's not a common issue in inhouses, it's not a big issue, and it's not going to ruin your inhouse experience, but in my eyes, it's an issue, even if a very tiny one. And it's one that if others agree with, then it has a quick and easy fix: don't invade. If you're trolling around then sure, go ahead and invade, dance in front of the enemy team in their jungle if you want. But I don't think walking into the enemy jungle with the intention of killing anyone that doesn't move out of your way is much different to kill someone that suddenly stops moving in lane.
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