LoL Tribunal & Community

[quote=DuffTime]Yeah Tribunal is far from optimal. If you start to get warnings, it's almost inevitable that you'll get banned.[/quote]

[quote=GrimmFate][quote=Shadeypwns] At least in other MOBA genre games when people rage and piss at me I can just ignore them. In LoL I'm under threat of being banned because other people just "don't like me". [/quote] That, is the main problem. However, it's not necessarily the people who report you. It's the people who review it and the chances of the people who reported you getting to check the case is unlikely. But... since you know most tribunal people just spam guilty over everything I see what you're getting at.[/quote]

[quote=Mooninites]this is how i feel every time i play solo queue [img=http://rlv.zcache.co.uk/beam_me_up_god_sticker-p217625863178928137z8xod_210.jpg][/quote]

[quote=lifebaka][quote=Shadeypwns] I'm curious as to how you know this? I'm not being a conspiracy theorist at all. I'm saying that trusting a gaming company who wants your money (it is a business) to tell you that their system is broken or just lazy isn't a responsible outlook. [/quote] Except that you're not asserting that. You're asserting that Riot is [i]lying[/i] (unlikely), not simply glossing over the truth (likely). To put it simply, it's bad for business to lie, because people get pissed if it gets out that you lied--and it [b]always[/b] gets out sooner or later--so assuming that they're going to do something obviously bad for business isn't what I would call a responsible outlook. [quote=Shadeypwns] Why doesn't Riot take the time and resources to moderate their own game like EVERY other MMO out there, instead of creating a community that punishes each other, has no positive side to it (no reward system) and are actually given IP as a reward for a purely negative banning system? [/quote] Probably due to the lack of a functioning in-game replay system. It'd be prohibitively difficult to moderate LoL in realtime. There are only so many games that one moderator can look at simultaneously, and there are a [i]lot[/i] of games going on all the time. It's also worth noting that the comparison to "EVERY other MMO out there" is extremely misleading. The vast majority of MMO games are persistent world, making it far easier for moderators to be able to look where they need to look at any given time, due to the finite size of the world. For this reason, comparing LoL to persistent world MMOs, such as World of Warcraft, isn't reasonable. It'd be a bit better to look at something like Guild Wars, which is largely instanced, for comparison, but even it has persistent world common areas between instances. [quote=DuffTime] If you start to get warnings, it's almost inevitable that you'll get banned. [/quote] This is at least partially due to the fact that people can't really change quickly, if they can change at all. From my experience at the Tribunal, I haven't seen any indication on any cases that the reportee has been sanctioned before, so previous warnings and such shouldn't be influencing how people vote. This may also be related to the fact that Tribunal cases seem to be kinda' backlogged. If someone does something that'll get them warned through the Tribunal, they might not actually get that warning for a week or more, during which time they presumably will have kept doing it and ended up with fresh cases against them. Of course, both of these do point to the system itself being broken, because they would mean that it's neither encouraging people to stop getting themselves reported nor giving them enough time to even try. [size=1]Note: I get kinda' wordy when I'm tired.[/size][/quote]

[quote=JEFFY40HANDS]I thought this was the Hecarim Champion Spotlight D:[/quote]

[quote=Shadeypwns][quote=Shadeypwns] I'm curious as to how you know this? I'm not being a conspiracy theorist at all. I'm saying that trusting a gaming company who wants your money (it is a business) to tell you that their system is broken or just lazy isn't a responsible outlook. [/quote] Except that you're not asserting that. You're asserting that Riot is [i]lying[/i] (unlikely), not simply glossing over the truth (likely). To put it simply, it's bad for business to lie, because people get pissed if it gets out that you lied--and it [b]always[/b] gets out sooner or later--so assuming that they're going to do something obviously bad for business isn't what I would call a responsible outlook. [b]Are you implying that Riot is a responsible company? Look at their track record so far.[/b] [quote=Shadeypwns] Why doesn't Riot take the time and resources to moderate their own game like EVERY other MMO out there, instead of creating a community that punishes each other, has no positive side to it (no reward system) and are actually given IP as a reward for a purely negative banning system? [/quote] Probably due to the lack of a functioning in-game replay system. It'd be prohibitively difficult to moderate LoL in realtime. There are only so many games that one moderator can look at simultaneously, and there are a [i]lot[/i] of games going on all the time. It's also worth noting that the comparison to "EVERY other MMO out there" is extremely misleading. The vast majority of MMO games are persistent world, making it far easier for moderators to be able to look where they need to look at any given time, due to the finite size of the world. For this reason, comparing LoL to persistent world MMOs, such as World of Warcraft, isn't reasonable. It'd be a bit better to look at something like Guild Wars, which is largely instanced, for comparison, but even it has persistent world common areas between instances. [b]On the contrary, LoL is even easier to moderate than a typical MMO because there is no need to do it in real time. All chat logs and statistics are saved to the server and can be viewed by moderators at any time they please.[/b] [quote=DuffTime] If you start to get warnings, it's almost inevitable that you'll get banned. [/quote] This is at least partially due to the fact that people can't really change quickly, if they can change at all. From my experience at the Tribunal, I haven't seen any indication on any cases that the reportee has been sanctioned before, so previous warnings and such shouldn't be influencing how people vote. This may also be related to the fact that Tribunal cases seem to be kinda' backlogged. If someone does something that'll get them warned through the Tribunal, they might not actually get that warning for a week or more, during which time they presumably will have kept doing it and ended up with fresh cases against them. Of course, both of these do point to the system itself being broken, because they would mean that it's neither encouraging people to stop getting themselves reported nor giving them enough time to even try. [size=1]Note: I get kinda' wordy when I'm tired.[/size] [b]Responses in Bold, I'm going on 40+ hours of being awake so I hope I actually answered what you said without making myself seem like an ass. I respect your opinion on the matter, and I think it's discussions like these that will impact what Riot ultimately decides to do about the Tribunal (other than post more stats bragging about how fabulous it is).[/b][/quote]

[quote=JEFFY40HANDS]Honestly i seem to run into more people unwilling to report others than i do find those who will report. Sleep deprivation is no excuse. The video commentator gave no concrete evidence. Simply conjecture and opinion. Had he actually wanted to make a "serious" attempt at informing us why tribunal is bad he wouldnt have blamed "12 year olds". A serious reason as to why tribunal is flawed is simple. "Tribunal simply does not give the judicators of a case enough information to make a well informed descision. Most often tribunal relies on shoddy limited statements that may include but is not limited to "this guy is a feeder fag ban him". Overall i agree that tribunal is imperfect, do i believe it is the source of the lol community's ignorance, bias, or rage? No, the community is responsible for its own "stupidity". Consider as evidence for the lol communities behavior the speed at which any sort of "joke, meeme, sterotypical response" spreads. Any number of pointless worthless and retard worthy comments that are made. "Morde es number 1" or "huehuehuehue" or "baylife" or "real" or "terror" etc etc. Same thing happens for tribunal. Everyone sheeps, eventually the system which in concept is good turns to shit. But the community made it that way not the other way around. Riot of course has work to do, but did they expect lol to get this big? Doubtful, we players whine, in general people whine. we are rarely appreciative of what we have. Overall as i said before the community is stagnating itself and the only way to fix it entails people growing the fuck up. (Which i doubt will happen at least not immideately). While the commentator had some ok points, overall he simply shoveled shit back and forth for 30 plus minutes.[/quote]

[quote=lifebaka][quote=Shadeypwns] [b]Are you implying that Riot is a responsible company? Look at their track record so far.[/b] [/quote] No, I was stating that your assumption, that Riot is only interested in their bottom line, does not support your conclusion, that Riot therefore lies. In fact, it might even argue against your conclusion. Also, you'll need more than a vague wave at "their track record so far" to really make a case about what I or others should believe about Riot. I'm happy to look at hard evidence, however, if you can provide any. [quote=Shadeypwns] [b]On the contrary, LoL is even easier to moderate than a typical MMO because there is no need to do it in real time. All chat logs and statistics are saved to the server and can be viewed by moderators at any time they please.[/b] [/quote] This is true, it wouldn't be too difficult to have Riot staff take a look at Tribunal cases (which actually argues in favor of Riot's statement that they do, in fact, review cases before permanent bans are handed out). [center][b]Warning, small essay to follow.[/b][/center] However, I'm going to take a step back to raise a few different issues with having moderators. As far as I can tell, the only things that Tribunal cases can actually end up going forward for are behavioral issues: deliberately not playing the game properly (i.e. assisting enemy team, intentionally feeding, griefing), attitude problems (negative attitude, refusal to communicate), and various forms of verbal abuse (both types of harassment, offensive names, etc.). Being bad at the game (unskilled player) isn't something that ever actually ends up at Tribunal, for instance. So any group of official moderators of a game like LoL is really going to end up policing the community's behavior, rather than carrying out any other function. And, in order to maintain at least some semblance of order, they are going to police the community's behavior based upon some pre-set and explicit code of conduct; after all, if individual moderators were left completely to their own devices it would be chaos. Now, this isn't really a problem, per se, as long as the community has agreed to whatever code of conduct the moderators are supposed to be upholding and as long as the community trusts the moderators to actually do so. But it is a problem, because it is impossible to get an entire community (especially one as large as LoL's) to agree to [b]anything[/b], and because it is impossible for even a relatively small group of moderators to maintain perfect consistency in their punishment. I'll deal with the former of these issues first. Looking only at the currently existing LoL community, and even then only the parts of it that are relatively "good" behavior-wise, it is going to be impossible to draw up a code of conduct that all these players will endorse. Some players are going to believe that a single dirty word is ban-worthy, while others will be willing to excuse even a large quantity of trash talk, as long as it stays within certain bounds. There will be disagreements as to how much playful banter between teams is allowed, what are proper subjects for said banter, where the line between said banter and abuse is, and everything else. And since Riot isn't likely to engage in a real conversation with the community as part of the process of drafting any code of conduct, but instead hand it down from on high, it is going to fracture the community between those who disagree with one part of the code and those who disagree with others. Of course, those who really disagree can simply stop playing, but that isn't really going to make things improve. To address the latter point, there are only two scenarios to look at. Either there will be some amount of ambiguity in whatever code of conduct is imposed upon the game, or there will not. If there is any ambiguity at all, it is not going to be possible to get all of the moderators to agree on the things that are ambiguous (see above), which is going to lead to inconsistent application of the rules. Even just looking at a single moderator, it is extremely unlikely that their application of the rules will be perfectly consistent from one day to the next, due to mood changes, or over long periods of time, due to moderators eventually becoming jaded or burning out. If there is absolutely no ambiguity in the code of conduct, then it will be inconsistent by virtue of not taking into account extenuating circumstances; while saying "fuck" twice in a game might be against the rules, telling your teammate to go fuck themselves a few times without provocation is not the same as commenting "fuck, that didn't go as planned" after a few lost teamfights. The community's ability to trust the moderators stems directly from our ability to predict the results of our actions, so if they are not consistent in what is and is not punished, eventually the community's trust will erode. Both of these factors are likely to lead to the eventual death of the community or breaking of any moderation system, given enough time. I'm honestly not sure if letting the community deal with itself is any better or worse in the long term. For a case study of how a community's trust is irrevocably tied to how consistent application of the rules are, I suggest you look at the English Wikipedia, another online community that I'm sporadically involved in. There, the ones who (supposedly) moderate the community's behavior are largely reviled for their efforts, even though the codes of conduct are (supposedly) explicitly written by the community, the moderators are (supposedly) explicitly elected by the community, and the moderators are (supposedly) immediately answerable to the community for their mistakes.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]I don't like the tribunal, but I like the idea that a troll might be scared to troll.[/quote]

[quote=Mooninites][quote=DuffTime] I don't like the tribunal, but I like the idea that a troll might be scared to troll. [/quote] no one is afraid to troll, the tribunal is a joke, it's so backed up it can't even handle the amount of reports that go through it. I saw a guy who said he intentionally fed everyday for 8 hours a day, 3 weeks straight before he was banned. here's the post: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1851303&highlight=reginald[/quote]