Vapora Dark wrote:
Nope, I just felt like saying that, but good to know Vapora Dark and Talon are becoming synonyms. ;P
Assuming there's 5 tiers, tiers 4-1 and an OMFGWTF tier, I would place Talon in tier 2 though.
When it comes to mid lane, Talon is tier 3 or lower. Definitely not higher.
GrandmasterD wrote:
When it comes to mid lane, Talon is tier 3 or lower. Definitely not higher.
Wins a lot of match-ups, good roaming, decent AoE, can split push ( which can't be said for most mids ). Why would you place him in tier 3?
Vapora Dark wrote:
Wins a lot of match-ups, good roaming, decent AoE, can split push ( which can't be said for most mids ). Why would you place him in tier 3?
Seeker's Armguard is an item that ruins Talon these days. It's a very efficient armour item for mid-laners that acts as a mighty counter and it allows enemies to start with Cloth Armor.On top of that,
Talon has no reliable escapes and pretty decent mana issues which cannot be solved easily. Though flask and potions help.Last but not least;
Zed and Kha'Zix are two alternatives to Talon who just do the overall job better, have powerful escapes and more utility.
GrandmasterD wrote:
Seeker's Armguard is an item that ruins Talon these days. It's a very efficient armour item for mid-laners that acts as a mighty counter and it allows enemies to start with Cloth Armor.On top of that,
Talon has no reliable escapes and pretty decent mana issues which cannot be solved easily. Though flask and potions help.Last but not least;
Zed and Kha'Zix are two alternatives to Talon who just do the overall job better, have powerful escapes and more utility.Seeker's Armguard hasn't really been that much of a problem for me since I switched to flat AD in runes. Armguard hurts ArPen runes more than it does flat AD runes. Even at gold 2 I've given firstblood to the enemy mid because of random derp or jungler ganks, and still managed to come back and win the lane despite them having a seeker's armguard on their first B.
Fair enough on the escapes, but his mana problems aren't that bad. I mostly don't take Flask and I still sometimes reject the offer of taking a blue buff because I'd rather do something else at that moment than go take the blue. Mana is barely a problem for Talon in most match-ups.
Zed and Kha hardly do the job better. Zed's burst is probably on-par or superior to Talon's, but after he uses his ult if their ADC uses their gap closer, he has to use his only escape to get back to the ADC. Making Zed easy to kill even if he does succeed in killing the AD carry. And his AoE has such tiny range it's barely even worth caling AoE. Whereas Kha can do AoE poke, but has nowhere near as much 1-shotting potential as Talon and Zed do, not to mention that his burst's strength is inconsistent. NEITHER of them can split push as well as Talon.
Also Talon has, for AGES, had a higher win rate than both Kha'Zix and Zed in at least Plat.
Win rates over the past 23 days in Platinum Elo:
Talon: 53%
Kha'Zix: 51%
Zed: 50%
Maybe in competitive play he isn't as strong as Kha and Zed, but in solo queue he's consistently proven to yield better results, at least in Plat. Yes, I have been checking.
Talon has in my opinion, been a strong pick since season 3 started, but very few people have noticed it. :>
Additionally, these are the Talon stats of Insoy, a Diamond 1 Talon main, who also has the highest Elo of any player to have hundreds of games played with Talon.
These are the stats of the 4 highest Elo players to have hundreds of games played with Zed.
None of them have as good a win ratio as Insoy does with Talon. Nor do they beat him in a flat amount of wins above losses.
Oh, and Insoy has a higher Elo than them, meaning he also plays against better players than them, yet still maintains a stronger win rate and stats with a supposedly weaker champ.
Vapora Dark wrote:
Seeker's Armguard hasn't really been that much of a problem for me since I switched to flat AD in runes. Armguard hurts ArPen runes more than it does flat AD runes. Even at gold 2 I've given firstblood to the enemy mid because of random derp or jungler ganks, and still managed to come back and win the lane despite them having a seeker's armguard on their first B.
Fair enough on the escapes, but his mana problems aren't that bad. I mostly don't take Flask and I still sometimes reject the offer of taking a blue buff because I'd rather do something else at that moment than go take the blue. Mana is barely a problem for Talon in most match-ups.
Zed and Kha hardly do the job better. Zed's burst is probably on-par or superior to Talon's, but after he uses his ult if their ADC uses their gap closer, he has to use his only escape to get back to the ADC. Making Zed easy to kill even if he does succeed in killing the AD carry. Whereas Kha can poke, but has nowhere near as much 1-shotting potential as Talon and Zed do, not to mention that his burst's strength is inconsistent. NEITHER of them can split push as well as Talon.
Also Talon has, for AGES, had a higher win rate than both Kha'Zix and Zed in both plat and diamond.
Win rates over the past 23 days in Platinum Elo:
Talon: 53%
Kha'Zix: 51%
Zed: 50%
Maybe in competitive play he isn't as strong as Kha and Zed, but in solo queue he's consistently proven to yield better results, at least in Plat. Yes, I have been checking.
Talon has in my opinion, been a strong pick since season 3 started, but very few people have noticed it. :>
There again we go with the numbers... will people just cut that out?! Honestly, jeez, numbers don't mean ****. The average Talon player is an experienced Talon player whilst Zed and Kha are picked up by a lot of different players including lots of noobs. Additionally, Zed and Kha are less straightforward than Talon.
Also, don't come with BS that Zed's burst is slightly higher because it isn't, it's way higher and it's nearly impossible to avoid. That is exactly the reason Zed is often picked or banned, additionally his laning phase is much and much stronger than Talon's.
Talon isn't a split-pusher and you should stop naming that as a strength. If you walk away from your team, the enemy engages: ezpz. And if you're talking about waveclear: Zed and Kha beat that by far.
Talon is a strong pick against people who possess only half a brain, people who know how to play against him will shut him down through heavy waveclear, counterbuilding and repetitive jungle ganks. I'm not saying he can't work well or that he can't perform properly but his counterparts are stronger, safer and more versatile. Additionally, Talon's only survivability skill can be shut down with a simple Oracle's or Vision Ward.
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