Look I'm not trying to sound like a ****, but I know a lot about League. I want to help people get better. Letting people disseminate incorrect information is basically turning a blind eye to to stuff that makes our community worse. I want to help. I just don't put up with dumb comments well =(
I'm not here to argue that you're wrong, 'cause you're not. I'm here to argue against your way of presenting which tends to be a little rough.
As someone who jungles Maokai somewhat frequently, yet at a much lower level, he brings a specific kind of utility to a team in terms of damage reduction and a fair amount of scouting. Yes he's slow, but he has quite a few strengths that should not be ignored.
The meta is of course centered on strong early gankers and duelists so, he's fallen off a lot since 90% of the "strong" ones can waltz in and steal his second buff and he'll be SoL, but if you can get some decent protection, you're golden.
As someone who jungles Maokai somewhat frequently, yet at a much lower level, he brings a specific kind of utility to a team in terms of damage reduction and a fair amount of scouting. Yes he's slow, but he has quite a few strengths that should not be ignored.
The meta is of course centered on strong early gankers and duelists so, he's fallen off a lot since 90% of the "strong" ones can waltz in and steal his second buff and he'll be SoL, but if you can get some decent protection, you're golden.
The golden mark for cs in the jungle is 100CS by 20 minutes. Obviously a lot of that farm comes from pushing/taxing lanes after ganks. It's nearly impossible to reach that level of CS with Maokai. His clear speed is just abysmal. Even if you don't get invaded on your first set of buffs the enemy jungler will already have finished his buffs and be ganking a lane before you've finished clearing.
Maokai fell into the same category as Shen and Malphite. They just aren't viable junglers anymore. Maokai also loses most 2v2 & 3v3 situations I see absolutely no reason to play him.
My all time favorite champion to play ever is Hecarim. I stomped faces with Hecarim. Mastering him got me to Diamond. After they nerfed him either directly or indirectly (build path) 6 or 7 times in a row I had to stop playing him. If its a normal with buddies play whatever you want. I bust out the Arcade Hecarim all the time. If you're trying to win games in solo-que though don't subject your teammates to sub-par picks. You can still win with them, but it's a lot harder to do so.
After Hecarim got nerfed into the ground I picked up Nautilus because he was incredibly strong. After a few nerfs he got shoved down to tier 3. Instead of being obstinate I picked up Jarvan so I could give my team the best chance of winning. If they nerf Jarvan I'll move onto the next 'op' jungler.
Maokai fell into the same category as Shen and Malphite. They just aren't viable junglers anymore. Maokai also loses most 2v2 & 3v3 situations I see absolutely no reason to play him.
My all time favorite champion to play ever is Hecarim. I stomped faces with Hecarim. Mastering him got me to Diamond. After they nerfed him either directly or indirectly (build path) 6 or 7 times in a row I had to stop playing him. If its a normal with buddies play whatever you want. I bust out the Arcade Hecarim all the time. If you're trying to win games in solo-que though don't subject your teammates to sub-par picks. You can still win with them, but it's a lot harder to do so.
After Hecarim got nerfed into the ground I picked up Nautilus because he was incredibly strong. After a few nerfs he got shoved down to tier 3. Instead of being obstinate I picked up Jarvan so I could give my team the best chance of winning. If they nerf Jarvan I'll move onto the next 'op' jungler.
You should be able to maintain at least a 60% win rate with any champion you play. If you aren't hitting that 60%+ mark pick up a different champion.
I am also a proponent of people staying current on the meta. As champions get nerfed the people they used to counter become viable again the resurgence of Ahri has a lot to do with the Ryze nerfs for example. Each patch brings new champions back into the meta or shifts them up/down in strength. You should always try to keep your champion pool for your role as up to date as possible.
To further illustrate this point look at whats happening to Samsung Ozone the Korean team at Worlds. They are probably one of, if not the strongest teams in groups 'mechanically'. Unfortunately their adc and more specifically their mid Dade is behind several patches. His champion pool isn't current. He plays Zed (banned), Ryze (nerfed), and Jayce (nerfed). This is leaving their team in a rough spot. Either play nerfed champions and cross their fingers or put Dade on a champion he isn't as practiced on. A team that looked like a surefire bet to come out of groups is now struggling to win games.
How does this all swing back to solo-que? Well, basically playing strong champions gives your team a better chance of winning games. I'm not advocating playing something for the first time just because its 'strong', I'm saying do your own analysis and come up with the strong picks for each patch and rotate them into your champion pool. Something Bruce Lee, something fluid like water.
GG goodnight.
I am also a proponent of people staying current on the meta. As champions get nerfed the people they used to counter become viable again the resurgence of Ahri has a lot to do with the Ryze nerfs for example. Each patch brings new champions back into the meta or shifts them up/down in strength. You should always try to keep your champion pool for your role as up to date as possible.
To further illustrate this point look at whats happening to Samsung Ozone the Korean team at Worlds. They are probably one of, if not the strongest teams in groups 'mechanically'. Unfortunately their adc and more specifically their mid Dade is behind several patches. His champion pool isn't current. He plays Zed (banned), Ryze (nerfed), and Jayce (nerfed). This is leaving their team in a rough spot. Either play nerfed champions and cross their fingers or put Dade on a champion he isn't as practiced on. A team that looked like a surefire bet to come out of groups is now struggling to win games.
How does this all swing back to solo-que? Well, basically playing strong champions gives your team a better chance of winning games. I'm not advocating playing something for the first time just because its 'strong', I'm saying do your own analysis and come up with the strong picks for each patch and rotate them into your champion pool. Something Bruce Lee, something fluid like water.
GG goodnight.
Apologies in advancw for poor spelling and punctuation. Am on phone.
Maokai did actually see some use during the summer split. Not much but he did.
Maokai has not been nerfed into the ground and his weakness has never been his clear speed or dueling power. He has fallen out of favor in the current competitive scene because he has severe mana issues, and there are junglers who do what he does without mana problems.
I am not saying that he is top tier. Just clarifying on why he is not used. It is not his low clear speed since his clear soeed is actually pretty good if he can use his abilities. It is not that he is vulnerable to invasion since he is actually not a bad duelist if he can use his abilities freely. He has high base AD and several VERY high damage abilities, natural tankiness and a spammable lockdown slash interrupt which also has high damage.
His weakness iss his dependency on blue buff or need for an early lead in order to solve his mana problems without it. He either needs to keep the blues for himself (not favored by the current meta) or get gold for mana items (can't depend on it).
Again not arguing that Maokai is good right now. Just clarifying on his weaknesses.
Maokai did actually see some use during the summer split. Not much but he did.
Maokai has not been nerfed into the ground and his weakness has never been his clear speed or dueling power. He has fallen out of favor in the current competitive scene because he has severe mana issues, and there are junglers who do what he does without mana problems.
I am not saying that he is top tier. Just clarifying on why he is not used. It is not his low clear speed since his clear soeed is actually pretty good if he can use his abilities. It is not that he is vulnerable to invasion since he is actually not a bad duelist if he can use his abilities freely. He has high base AD and several VERY high damage abilities, natural tankiness and a spammable lockdown slash interrupt which also has high damage.
His weakness iss his dependency on blue buff or need for an early lead in order to solve his mana problems without it. He either needs to keep the blues for himself (not favored by the current meta) or get gold for mana items (can't depend on it).
Again not arguing that Maokai is good right now. Just clarifying on his weaknesses.
"Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness."
- Terry Pratchett
- Terry Pratchett
Wut...
In a thread of dumb comments, you sir take the cake.
Maokai isn't especially mana hungry when you compare him to several meta junglers such as Nasus and Fiddlesticks.
There are two ways to get around mana issues. You can itemize for it, for example on Nasus you build a bottle. The other way is you could try not spamming all your abilities on every camp like a ri-ri. Your Q should be enough for small camps.
I'm in a manager/free agent chat with a lot of the top players in the country. I'll get you a quote from Nintendude or Lautermortis if you'd like but you're absolutely wrong, and I'm absolutely right.
TLDR: Maokai isn't played because he's ****py when he gets counterganked and has an abysmal clear speed. It has nothing to do with mana issues. Nasus is way more mana hungry than any other jungler and yet he's played often.
In a thread of dumb comments, you sir take the cake.
Maokai isn't especially mana hungry when you compare him to several meta junglers such as Nasus and Fiddlesticks.
There are two ways to get around mana issues. You can itemize for it, for example on Nasus you build a bottle. The other way is you could try not spamming all your abilities on every camp like a ri-ri. Your Q should be enough for small camps.
I'm in a manager/free agent chat with a lot of the top players in the country. I'll get you a quote from Nintendude or Lautermortis if you'd like but you're absolutely wrong, and I'm absolutely right.
TLDR: Maokai isn't played because he's ****py when he gets counterganked and has an abysmal clear speed. It has nothing to do with mana issues. Nasus is way more mana hungry than any other jungler and yet he's played often.
Hi, I am Master Yi, and I am the best charakter to farm the jungle in the game. I sometimes make some ambush ganks but most of the time I go to the lane where allies are dead and take their farm aswell. And if a fight starts, I sneak in last, clean everything up and be the true master. Oh, I did forget to mention that I am stronger the dumber my enemies are.
BTW: This Thread is not about competetive play, it is pre 30 normal queue. And normal queue, especially pre 30, is way different from competetive play and has its own rules.
Master Yi, and I am the best charakter to farm the jungle in the game. I sometimes make some ambush ganks but most of the time I go to the lane where allies are dead and take their farm aswell. And if a fight starts, I sneak in last, clean everything up and be the true master. Oh, I did forget to mention that I am stronger the dumber my enemies are.BTW: This Thread is not about competetive play, it is pre 30 normal queue. And normal queue, especially pre 30, is way different from competetive play and has its own rules.
NicknameMy wrote:
Hi, I am
Master Yi, and I am the best charakter to farm the jungle in the game. I sometimes make some ambush ganks but most of the time I go to the lane where allies are dead and take their farm aswell. And if a fight starts, I sneak in last, clean everything up and be the true master. Oh, I did forget to mention that I am stronger the dumber my enemies are.BTW: This Thread is not about competetive play, it is pre 30 normal queue. And normal queue, especially pre 30, is way different from competetive play and has its own rules.
Hi, i am the enemy firstpick. i ban
Master Yi although there are better bans because he is annoying as ****.
Fool, from your last comment you clearly have no idea what you're talking about (high damage, great duelist, great clearspeed WHAT???????)
Maokai had a place in S2 when he actually WAS a fast clearer, and now I think he's easily T4.
I think C4 is undervaluing shen jungle, I personally love him as a hyper-ganking jungler similar to Aatrox.
C4 lasty is a diamond 1 that EXCLUSIVELY plays jungler. You can't even handle silver and your theorycrafting / game knowledge is abysmal at best. If you want to get better, sometimes you have to close your mouth and open your ears.
If you want to see how good of a duelist he is, you can run level 3 double buff maokai vs any other level 3 double buff jungler and see who wins. I cant even think of a single semi-meta jungler he'll beat (nasus, j4, xin, lee, eve, nautilus, etc). He's an exceptionally POOR duelist, mediocre ganker, and malphite-tier clear speed. Maokai is out of the meta until they lower the camps healths to s2 levels.
Maokai had a place in S2 when he actually WAS a fast clearer, and now I think he's easily T4.
I think C4 is undervaluing shen jungle, I personally love him as a hyper-ganking jungler similar to Aatrox.
C4 lasty is a diamond 1 that EXCLUSIVELY plays jungler. You can't even handle silver and your theorycrafting / game knowledge is abysmal at best. If you want to get better, sometimes you have to close your mouth and open your ears.
If you want to see how good of a duelist he is, you can run level 3 double buff maokai vs any other level 3 double buff jungler and see who wins. I cant even think of a single semi-meta jungler he'll beat (nasus, j4, xin, lee, eve, nautilus, etc). He's an exceptionally POOR duelist, mediocre ganker, and malphite-tier clear speed. Maokai is out of the meta until they lower the camps healths to s2 levels.
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Don't you love people who assume that anybody not used in competitive is trash and should never be picked?
If you want a discussion about if a champion is good or not, you should look into competitive play. If you want it to just about casual play, then why bother starting the discussion?