Who do you ban?

[quote=Hatted][quote=Ellodere][quote=Hatted][quote=Ellodere][quote=Hatted][quote=Ellodere][quote=Hatted][quote=Ellodere][quote=Hatted][quote=Blian]I always ban [[Pantheon]]. I just hate the built-in tp.[/quote] His ganks aren't super strong though. The ult is pretty good for roaming but against multiple people, if he's the jungler, he gets decimated.[/quote] Depends, panth ganks are very strong because it doesn't show the enemy directly that he is ulting, but about 2 seconds after. If a pantheon jungle ganks botlane for example, it can be a really really strong gank if the tribrush is warded (if the enemy is on the red side) or the river brush (if the enemy is on the blue side. There's also some places like in dragon and or the tribrush behind the t2 red turret that can work as blind spots where panth can ult from. So his ganks with his ult is just sick.[/quote] It's stronger in that sense but the past many times the enemy Panth has ganked MY bot lane, it didn't end well for anyone on their team.[/quote] Hmmmm, I don't mean to be picky, but I would like some information of a botlane composition that the panth ganked during that/those game/games? Further more, yes. It can go pretty badly for a panth if he ganks at the wrong time. Yet, it's mostly relying on his botlane to follow up, a panth jungle has to use his ult in a good and safe way so that he doesn't die (that's what makes his ult very reliant on decision making!). I could of course bring up an example, a [[thresh]] and [[caitlyn]] botlane where the thresh can cc the panth, keeping him locked down where he stands while caitlyn who maybe has 50% of her hp left use her E to disengage from panth and slow him so that she can effectively chunk him down and kill him(that botlane composition is terrifying when the caitlyn places the trap at a perfect position where the thresh will hook or flay the opponent into, it's like a [[morgana]] [[caitlyn]] composition but with a bit less shit in your pants when they do that combo).[/quote] For the most part I've been playing Alistar, Leona, Thresh, and Lulu in bot lane. Allow to to tell you how each of these can go. Alistar: Q, W, Ult, win. Leona: Use every last bit of your kit and exhaust whoever's lowest Thresh: Flay Panth (since he has an ability where he just stands still) and grab/ult when needed; lantern if necessary Lulu: Polymorph, ult, win Even Morgana could just Q him and walk away; I only see a problem with people like Sona, Soraka, Zilean; considering they have lack-luster cc.[/quote] Now, everyone of these supports have a kit that can be used to peel off a panth. Yet, we have to include the enemy in a situation like this, let's be real, a panth isn't gonna ult if he knows that his botlane is low, oom, too far away from him when he ganks. Panth, with his kit and lock down an adc, and if we say there's a blitzcrank on his team, what that blitz can do is flash + Q and take the enemy adc (or a squishy supp) into his grasp and give a free kill to his adc. But, you are right that panth can be countered when he ganks, if you play for example alistar, what you can do if there's a blitz on their team is stand right in front of your adc ASAP when the panth ult comes, that would be your first response to the ult, the second one would be to peel off the panth when his ult is done, to make sure that you yourself don't die, you will ult and just run away to your tower. Panth could still kill YOU on the other hand, which is another side of the situation, because blitz just flash + Q and instead of hitting the adc he hit you, he would then immediatly do his best to keep you at one spot untill the tankiness from your ult diminishes. I'm not sure though if that would happen in a real situation. What do you think?[/quote] Once again, we're talking about what happens in MY bot lane. It's gonna be something terrifying if my team loses bot. Pantheon won't be able to cc my adc a whole lot considering he has one stun and nothing else; I can just smack 'em off. Like I said, squishy cc-weak supports could have trouble. Even a Nami could just stop Panth and the oncoming bot laners and change a fight. I'm not saying Panth is bad, I'm saying I don't have trouble with him.[/quote] I was speaking of your botlane, just discussing around why panth is so good. Maybe he isn't a big deal to you, because like you said, he has only one stun. I'm not sure though if you could "change a fight" through having a cc oriented support like nami or any of the other supports you were mentioning. I'm sorry that I may seem like I'm believing that you think Panth is bad, because I really don't believe that you said that. I just want to have a discussion about it, because it interests me to how you think panth isn't a problem. Just some ideas from you. You are of course right about cc-weak supports, that is a big issue when playing against a panth jungle. Because those kind of supports like sona tend to be squishy and can't really defend themselves or their adc as effectively as someone like leona who has strong cc. Another point you are in some sence right about is that your adc won't be stopped by the little amount of cc panth has, but panth does have a capability of slowing with his ult, even for just 35% during 1 second, it still matters to us when we discuss about what panth could do in a situation where he does a gank. I've been explaining through my posts a bit to why I think panth is a really good jungle. I however don't want to discuss about this for too long because you and I both have our own opinion about him, which I with all honesty respect.[/quote] Typically once the circle shows we try to go as far out of the center as possible (obvious, but it leads up to something). Usually Pantheon ults in or in front of his bot lane and his stun isn't a projectile; it's a leap. Which brings him right up to my adc and I in which case he uses Heartseeker Strike, throws a spear, and becomes an auto-only champ. In which case I can just cc him down. I feel Pantheon does poorly against people with good cc/damage (so basically bot lane). While the ult might be good for teamfights it really take capitalization for a Panth ult to lead to significant damage. Once again, since our bot lane is always coordinated/trusted we know what we can do and when we can do it. If I feel my adc could die I would sacrifice myself, or just cc him away with a good Headbutt/Leo Ult/Box/Polymorph.[/quote]