Mobafire League of Legends Build Guides Mobafire League of Legends Build Guides
's Forum Avatar

Cloth Armor: An OP Consumable Item

Creator: Foo18
December 24, 2012 1:20am
11 posts page 1 of 2 Forums » Theory Crafting & Ideation » Cloth Armor: An OP Consumable Item
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by Foo18 » December 24, 2012 1:20am | Report
First things first.
1. Yes, I know cloth isn't a consumable
2. This isn't a balance thread, this is a strategy thread. I am not QQing about cloth being OP. I am merely suggesting that we think of basic items as consumables and sell them if we don't build them into something.


So, why do I say cloth is an OP consumable then? Well, for starters, it only costs 300 gold. Not only that, but the sell value is 210 gold. That means the item only costs you 90 gold after sold. That is the equivalent of about two and a half HP pots, or about 3-4 CS.

A lot of the times, I have laned top or mid against an AD champ, or just laned bot and thought. "I need some armor to win my lane, but I can't build it into anything useful." But now that I've looked at the sell value of cloth armor, I realize that I don't have to.

So, what about null magic mantle? It's similar. After being sold (400 gold to buy, 280 sell value) you get 20 MR for however long you need it, for an end cost of 120 gold.


Are there any disadvantages to this?

Well, yes there is. Though it costs about 90 for a little armor and 120 for a little MR at the end, it still costs 300 or 400 up front. That means it will delay your build overall, until you decide to sell it.

However, that is a lot like Doran's items. Doran's items cost 475 gold, with a wimpy resale value of 190 gold. That means at the end, they cost 285.

So, instead of going for double doran's items, like more laners do, why not consider going 1 doran's+ a cloth armor or null magic mantle? After considering the sale value, they are actually more cost effective than doran's.



Are there any other items that this apply's to?

Glad you asked!

Amplifying Tome- Total cost 120 Gold <----No me gusta
Dagger- Total cost 120 Gold <----No me gusta
Faerie Charm- Total cost 54 <---- me gusta
Long sword- Total cost 120 Gold <----No me gusta
Rejuv beads- Total cost 54 <---- No me gusta
Ruby Cystal- Total cost 143 <--- Me gusta
Crystalline Flask- Total Cost 135 <--- Bad sell value, but still me gusta.


Please tell me what you think of my strategy. If like it, please +rep :)


TL;DR Basic items such as cloth armor, null magic mantle, and ruby crystal have really high sell values. I think you can abuse this by buying them, only for laning phase and selling them later for the cost of only a few HP pots.
__________________________________Ignorance is not bliss. Ignorance of your ignorance is bliss._________________________________
Foo18's Forum Avatar

Foo18
<Member>
Posts: 155
Joined: May 31st, 2012
Rep: Unremarkable (9)
Blog   |   Profile
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by RaNuD » December 24, 2012 7:41am | Report
Every time a friend goes "HEY, LOOK WHAT I JUST BOUGHT!!", I know they bought a and are making fun of me because I say it's the most OP item in this game. Of course, it's hyperbolic, but I do agree with the general idea of your thread. I havent tried buying these without building anything, though.
In a thread about his own ban,
gabpin wrote:
stfu I only did that : swearing and thats why i got ban are u ****** or something ?

In a thread about toxic players,
Go be a whiny baby elsewhere. Find and abuse the ignore button. No sense stinking up this forum with your crying.
RaNuD's Forum Avatar

RaNuD
<Member>
Posts: 358
Joined: Jun 21st, 2010
Rep: Unremarkable (19)
Profile
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by Cliff Walrus » December 24, 2012 7:46am | Report
Foo18 wrote:

Rejuv beads- Total cost 54 <---- No me gusta
Ruby Cystal- Total cost 143 <--- Me gusta


backwards?

I get what you are saying that certain cheap items cost little and have a pretty high resale value, which is good. I would like to argue that some aren't really "consumable" since items on the list build into the most powerful items in the game. its just the difference of which part of the recipe you are buying first; IE: Zhonya's Hourglass if you are winning the lane DUH buy the expensive damage dealing ones. If you are losing and they bought the expensive, damage dealing items DUH buy the cheap defensive parts and keep farming.

Crystalline Flask is a really nice start alternative to boots 3. if you dont have skillshots to dodge or you aren't supposed to. I always do this when playing support/tank now. somebody who isnt lazy should do a comparison about hp/money vs health pots.
Sometimes there's so much stupid in the world, I feel like I can't take it, and my head is just going to explode.
Cliff Walrus's Forum Avatar

Cliff Walrus
<Member>
Posts: 22
Joined: Dec 8th, 2012
Rep: Unremarkable (1)
Blog   |   Profile
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by Foo18 » December 24, 2012 10:28am | Report
backwards?

I get what you are saying that certain cheap items cost little and have a pretty high resale value, which is good. I would like to argue that some aren't really "consumable" since items on the list build into the most powerful items in the game. its just the difference of which part of the recipe you are buying first; IE: Zhonya's Hourglass if you are winning the lane DUH buy the expensive damage dealing ones. If you are losing and they bought the expensive, damage dealing items DUH buy the cheap defensive parts and keep farming.

Crystalline Flask is a really nice start alternative to boots 3. if you dont have skillshots to dodge or you aren't supposed to. I always do this when playing support/tank now. somebody who isnt lazy should do a comparison about hp/money vs health pots.


Yes, I am aware basic items build into good higher tier items. But sometimes, you really need some armor, but don't build cloth armor anything. Like vlad, for instance. Say I am laning as oriana, and I am up against a talon mid. I want some armor, but getting a chain vest will set me behind a little, and rushing zhonya's isn't ideal. I can just buy a cloth armor and sell it later. Another example is one that I have done several times. I'm laning mid against an Annie as Morgana. I know that she can one shot me faster than I can one shot her if try to fight her, unless I put some points into E. However, if I do that I won't be able to one shot her. If I buy a ruby crystal, I can win a fight with her and survive, and just sell it later since I don't build it into anything.


BTW, the reasoning for what items I like isn't their cost effectiveness (all the listed ones save for flask are cost effective) I was just talking about how useful the item is. I don't think rejuv beads are that useful in lane.
__________________________________Ignorance is not bliss. Ignorance of your ignorance is bliss._________________________________
Foo18's Forum Avatar

Foo18
<Member>
Posts: 155
Joined: May 31st, 2012
Rep: Unremarkable (9)
Blog   |   Profile
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by tehAsian » December 24, 2012 12:21pm | Report
Wat.

What the hell are you talking about?

"I need armor, so ill buy a Cloth Armor and sell it later."

"I need MR, I'll buy a Mantle and sell it later."

Why sell them when they upgrade into items that are perfectly fine?

You don't run Sorc boots against AD mids, you run Tabi if you need them.

If you can get 1 shotted by Morgana and need a Ruby Crystal, build it into Haunting Guise. Or, build MR via Abyssal or MERCS.

Hourglass rush isn't bad, neither is Abyssal rush or w/e.

Flask is SUPER cost effective, you use 3 charges, back, then 3 charges again, and its essentially making money for you because you aren't spending money on potions. There should be no reason to start boots anyway, what do you need the extra speed for?

99% of junglers start Machete, you don't need boots to run. Higher base MS lets you avoid skill shots, and Flask gives enough sustain that you can use it to heal up harass or regenerate mana. You also start with a ward and you can avoid the jungler easily.
LaCorpse's Signature Cafe


Thanks to Keondre, JhoiJhoi, Xiron, and Arcana3 for the Sigs~!
tehAsian's Forum Avatar

Awards Showcase
Show more awards
tehAsian
<Veteran>
Posts: 3721
Joined: Jul 20th, 2011
Rep: Distinguished (247)
Blog   |   Profile
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by Cliff Walrus » December 24, 2012 1:37pm | Report
I didn't have time to do this earlier but here we go now, for your viewing pleasure.
Cloth Armor vs Chain Vest vs Ninja Tabi

Sell price formula:

Items can be sold back at the shop for 70% of their total cost. Items that generate gold, Doran's, and Prospector's items only return 50% of their original cost.

Buy price per armor on each item:

1/20, 1/18, 1/40

time to buy*:

187.5s/450s/625s
effectiveness: 15AD to counter/ 40AD to counter/ 10% physical damage reduction to everything*.

buy*:

with 0 cs, no gp/10, no quints/ no masteries a flat 16g/10s off lolwiki actually its lower assuming a boots3 start because you have 20g left over which will end up shaving off about 1.2 seconds; I'm not going to math it for you because its insignificant.

everything*:

claims on the wiki report that it reduces AD spells and auto-attacks with bonus AD from items/spells. if it does in fact do this then its the single greatest damage mitigation per gold item in the league.

All you are proposing is taking advantage of the sale price formula. lower cost = higher resale value = more cost efficient. I still think you have a bad idea, its not a theory because you didn't mathcraft at all. I still wouldn't buy an item I'm not going to actually consume or build into something. Money is an object and an objective. I never said you had to rush zhonya's you can let that chain vest sit in your inventory while you build whatever you want. I said, you shouldn't waste your money which is in limited supply anyway and even more so if you are already losing the lane.

in an impossible scenario where 2 champs are fighting 1v1 and nobody has lifesteal/spell vamp: who is going to win? is it A.) the one that did the most damage or B.) the one who still has HP left?

Wrap up:


exactly what tehAsain said. there are enough choices now that you can get damage AND damage reduction. if you are following the glass cannon guides to the T you are a moron. you should be building to counter them and out damage them.
Sometimes there's so much stupid in the world, I feel like I can't take it, and my head is just going to explode.
Cliff Walrus's Forum Avatar

Cliff Walrus
<Member>
Posts: 22
Joined: Dec 8th, 2012
Rep: Unremarkable (1)
Blog   |   Profile
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by Foo18 » December 24, 2012 2:32pm | Report
The idea of this thread is trying to proves that you don't HAVE to build them into anything. Sure, you are wasting gold by selling them, but it can make the difference, thereby paying for itself.

But to your point, that there is no reason NOT to build it into something, I disagree.

Building it into a defense/offense item would increase your potential for fighting one person, but you have to commit a lot of gold to that item, and it delays your late game items, making you worse in teamfights. You aren't considering the potential gold loss by building items that are mostly good in lane phase.

This strategy let's you buy a little defense, without committing into sub optimal items. If you need armor in lane, sure you cacn build ninja tabi, but you lose the magic pen from sorc shoes (which is a very hard to get stat) for only 10 extra armor, and 10% less damage from basic attacks which isn't very useful against most AD casters.

So, let's put it this way. (BTW, in my example, I was the morg, not the annie)

If I had a choice between being morgana with rod of the ages and a blue elixir
and morgana with zhonya's
I would chose the morgana with zhonya's, even though I "wasted" the gold on the ruby crystal and didn't have enough for an elixir.

I have often found myself in situations where I need some defense to do something in lane, but I didn't want to build a big item because it would delay my core items some (Not because I follow rote builds, but because those items are just really good for you). Before, I just wouldn't build them, but now I just buy a basic item and sell it later. If the extra stats get you are kill, or just a few extra CS, then it has payed for itself.

Also, your evaluation based off passive GP10 is irrelevant because CS is so important.


So, in summation.

It often times isn't worth it to commit to a non-ideal item for some defensive stats, but you can instead just buy some of the defense and just sell it later. That only lose a few pots or a ward or two worth in gold.

(P.S. I don't know why you guys got the impression I don't like flask. I said it didn't have a good sell back rate, but it is still a fantastic and cost effective item. I said "Bad sell value rate, but still me gusta)

(P.S.S Can we please keep ad hominem out of this discussion. Calling me a moron for "Following builds to a T" is both rude, and false since I am obviously not following a build to the T by buying a basic item along with it.)
__________________________________Ignorance is not bliss. Ignorance of your ignorance is bliss._________________________________
Foo18's Forum Avatar

Foo18
<Member>
Posts: 155
Joined: May 31st, 2012
Rep: Unremarkable (9)
Blog   |   Profile
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by Athan » December 24, 2012 2:57pm | Report
I approve of this thread. I do the same, except i often have build paths (Im in love with Randuins/Frozen heart/Runic Bulwark), but this can be quite a "boost". Just like a potion, you pay 250 gold for 200 hp and 20 AD or so (cant remember off the top of my head), and i don't see why you WOULDNT use basic items for the same purpose.

Good thread, good read, great idea. +rep.
Athan's Forum Avatar

Awards Showcase
Show more awards
Athan
<Member>
Posts: 139
Joined: Dec 15th, 2012
Rep: Unremarkable (18)
Blog   |   Profile
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by Foo18 » December 24, 2012 3:22pm | Report
Athan wrote:

I approve of this thread. I do the same, except i often have build paths (Im in love with Randuins/Frozen heart/Runic Bulwark), but this can be quite a "boost". Just like a potion, you pay 250 gold for 200 hp and 20 AD or so (cant remember off the top of my head), and i don't see why you WOULDNT use basic items for the same purpose.

Good thread, good read, great idea. +rep.


Thank you! I think I'll post some more strategy threads here. I have been posting all of them on GD for the official LoL forums, but idk. That forums moves so quickly and no ones remembers you, so I think I'll post some more here. I tried to solomid forums too, but idk. The moderators are ****s, and when people post in a strategy, they go on tangents so easily xD.

I think I'm going to make one on Doran's shield now, and then maybe do one on uncommon skill orders for mid laners that I play.

P.S. Should I post them here, or in GD? This forums seems a little bit empty
__________________________________Ignorance is not bliss. Ignorance of your ignorance is bliss._________________________________
Foo18's Forum Avatar

Foo18
<Member>
Posts: 155
Joined: May 31st, 2012
Rep: Unremarkable (9)
Blog   |   Profile
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by Kuukai85 » December 24, 2012 3:32pm | Report
Just one thing..The idea is nice, but the aiming to THE BUILD is something i feel as wrong. I know that every champ has something like an "ideal" build or we have it in our mind when we use it, but you have to be more adaptable about. If you start against a laner and you feel that you NEED an item out of your usual build, there's 2 options: 1) he really counters you, so you need something to contain him; 2) you don't feel confident enough to use your champ during the early game. If it's the first case, try different builds: maybe that cloth you bought can be the beginning of a tanky build, for a sacrifice game. If it's the second case, just do more blind picks and train against different kind of laner, to understand how to adapt and counter :)
Be a grammar nazi with me, i need to improve my english T_T
Kuukai85's Forum Avatar

Awards Showcase
Show more awards
Kuukai85
<Member>
Posts: 151
Joined: Aug 18th, 2012
Rep: Unremarkable (3)
Profile

Quick Reply:

Guest commenting is currently disabled, please log in or sign up to respond!