desert bros, renekton and nasus duo top

[quote=Vapora Dark][quote=Wayne3100] I think GMD was more trying to point out that [[Swain]]'s waveclear is bad, not that [[Zed]] (or any other champ for that matter) won't take damage if he gets hit by [[Nevermove]] [/quote] I don't think I ever said Swain has good waveclear, I do agree it's very bad. He quoted my entire post and said it was bullshit, so I can only assume he meant I was lying / exaggerating / making up my entire post just because they're my mains and I want them to look good.[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=Vapora Dark] [quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=Vapora Dark] [quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=Vapora Dark] Lol I actually like this change. Vulnerability to early jungle ganks are one of both Talon and Swain's biggest cons, especially Swain. Likewise for Swain, if I don't have a jungler, there's no one to decide they'd rather have the blue instead of me. And with the enemy team having no jungler, the chances of the enemy team actually stealing the blue are very slim. That's 2 of Swain's biggest cons gone overnight. Inb4 Swain tier 1. Viva la duo-top-olution! [/quote] Both [h2][b]Swain[/b][/h2] and Talon will not be able to lane mid anymore as they [h2][b]will be dominated by[/b][/h2] the high waveclear champs such as Lissandra, [h2][b]Zed[/b][/h2], Ziggs, etc. [/quote] wat Swain vs Zed is literally one of the most one-sided lanes for Swain I've ever played. You can't waveclear SHIT if you can't get close enough to the minions to cast W. Lissandra and Ziggs do technically counter Swain because of their wave-clear and range, but as I often like to say, playing against [[swain]] requires a high skillcap. If you make the mistake of getting hit by [[nevermove]], all the range in the world won't prevent Swain eating your face. Landing a random W as Swain often ends being a free kill if they don't flash, sometimes even despite a flash. And I don't recall Talon having trouble farming under the tower. In fact I more often find myself frustrated at the fact that the lane is in fact pushed too far towards my enemy's tower and I can't jump on them. And even if Talon did have it hard to CS under his tower, post-tiamat his waveclear is far better than [[ziggs]]', [[lissandra]]'s and [[zed]]'s. [/quote] I don't think I've read this amount of bullshit in one post in a long time. I'd advise you to stop jerking off to two champions and take a look around you. [/quote] It's not bullshit. I have a lot more experience with both champs than you do, and I've run those lanes multiple times. Talon with a Tiamat clears a full wave in 2 clicks, less than a second after casting W. Lissandra, Ziggs and Zed can't wave-clear that fast, and Ziggs + Lissandra need to use up more mana than him to clear an entire wave. Even pre-Tiamat, Talon stacks AD and has an auto-attack reset, last-hitting under the tower until he can compete in terms of wave-clear is nowhere near as much of a problem as it is for for most other AP carries. I've seen you say before that Kassadin deals well with being shoved to his tower because he can last-hit under the tower with W, and any AD champion does almost as much auto-attack damage or more than Kass with W turned on. Why would it be any different for Talon? I've ran Swain vs Zed like 10 times in ranked alone and it's no different to running Swain vs any other meelee. If Zed wants to farm, even with W, he's going to take a [[torment]], [[decrepify]] and a [[torment]]-enhanced auto-attack or two just to place his W near enough. If he tries to do it post-6 and gets snared, he'll likely die if he doesn't Flash. You may not believe that because Swain is only seen once every blue moon, but Swain's damage is retarded, and don't pretend you know exactly how much damage he does just because you're a mid lane main, you likely see Swain every 70 games or more, and because of his unpopularity, I'm assuming you've not played him extensively either to recognize how much damage he can out-put. Snaring someone at level 6 that can't CC you back in return like [[syndra]] can will 100% of the time either force them to recall on 20% HP or kill them. That's something I've noticed from maining him, and it's partly why I love him so much. I didn't just randomly take a liking to him and decide to exaggerate how good he is, I only like him because he's so strong. [/quote] I know very well how to play against Swain and how to deal with his harass and range. I've played Swain extensively in both top and mid lane and played a ton of different matchups multiple times with him. The same applies to Zed and I've played that matchup a lot as well, a bit more from Zed's perspective but from both nonetheless. Swain doesn't destroy Zed because Zed can easily waveclear against him post 3 and Swain will not be able to keep up, especially considering his ability to farm under the tower is atrocious. TAlon's waveclear higher than lissandra? You high son? Also let's compare to zed with tiamat shall we?[/quote]

[quote=Vapora Dark][quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=Vapora Dark] [quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=Vapora Dark] [quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=Vapora Dark] Lol I actually like this change. Vulnerability to early jungle ganks are one of both Talon and Swain's biggest cons, especially Swain. Likewise for Swain, if I don't have a jungler, there's no one to decide they'd rather have the blue instead of me. And with the enemy team having no jungler, the chances of the enemy team actually stealing the blue are very slim. That's 2 of Swain's biggest cons gone overnight. Inb4 Swain tier 1. Viva la duo-top-olution! [/quote] Both [h2][b]Swain[/b][/h2] and Talon will not be able to lane mid anymore as they [h2][b]will be dominated by[/b][/h2] the high waveclear champs such as Lissandra, [h2][b]Zed[/b][/h2], Ziggs, etc. [/quote] wat Swain vs Zed is literally one of the most one-sided lanes for Swain I've ever played. You can't waveclear SHIT if you can't get close enough to the minions to cast W. Lissandra and Ziggs do technically counter Swain because of their wave-clear and range, but as I often like to say, playing against [[swain]] requires a high skillcap. If you make the mistake of getting hit by [[nevermove]], all the range in the world won't prevent Swain eating your face. Landing a random W as Swain often ends being a free kill if they don't flash, sometimes even despite a flash. And I don't recall Talon having trouble farming under the tower. In fact I more often find myself frustrated at the fact that the lane is in fact pushed too far towards my enemy's tower and I can't jump on them. And even if Talon did have it hard to CS under his tower, post-tiamat his waveclear is far better than [[ziggs]]', [[lissandra]]'s and [[zed]]'s. [/quote] I don't think I've read this amount of bullshit in one post in a long time. I'd advise you to stop jerking off to two champions and take a look around you. [/quote] It's not bullshit. I have a lot more experience with both champs than you do, and I've run those lanes multiple times. Talon with a Tiamat clears a full wave in 2 clicks, less than a second after casting W. Lissandra, Ziggs and Zed can't wave-clear that fast, and Ziggs + Lissandra need to use up more mana than him to clear an entire wave. Even pre-Tiamat, Talon stacks AD and has an auto-attack reset, last-hitting under the tower until he can compete in terms of wave-clear is nowhere near as much of a problem as it is for for most other AP carries. I've seen you say before that Kassadin deals well with being shoved to his tower because he can last-hit under the tower with W, and any AD champion does almost as much auto-attack damage or more than Kass with W turned on. Why would it be any different for Talon? I've ran Swain vs Zed like 10 times in ranked alone and it's no different to running Swain vs any other meelee. If Zed wants to farm, even with W, he's going to take a [[torment]], [[decrepify]] and a [[torment]]-enhanced auto-attack or two just to place his W near enough. If he tries to do it post-6 and gets snared, he'll likely die if he doesn't Flash. You may not believe that because Swain is only seen once every blue moon, but Swain's damage is retarded, and don't pretend you know exactly how much damage he does just because you're a mid lane main, you likely see Swain every 70 games or more, and because of his unpopularity, I'm assuming you've not played him extensively either to recognize how much damage he can out-put. Snaring someone at level 6 that can't CC you back in return like [[syndra]] can will 100% of the time either force them to recall on 20% HP or kill them. That's something I've noticed from maining him, and it's partly why I love him so much. I didn't just randomly take a liking to him and decide to exaggerate how good he is, I only like him because he's so strong. [/quote] TAlon's waveclear higher than lissandra? You high son? Also let's compare to zed with tiamat shall we? [/quote] How are you meant to have higher waveclear than someone who deletes minion waves in under a second? Clearing waves in 0.2 seconds? Somehow I can't see Zed or especially Lissandra doing that. Unless I'm mistaken, to clear a wave Zed would have to E + Tiamat the middle of the wave, and then have to clear the meelee minions' remaining HP with auto-attacks or Q. The ranged minions would presumably die to E + Q. Talon just needs to position himself in front of the meelee minions ( takes less time than positioning yourself PAST the meelee minions ), cast W and Tiamat, and the ranged minions will instantly die to W while the meelee minions die 0.2 seconds later to W + Tiamat. Unless E + Tiamat on Zed clears the full wave instantly, no, he doesn't wave-clear faster than Talon post-9 or even post-7. But hey if Riot ever implements a 0 second CD on [[zed]]'s E, I suppose he'll waveclear faster.[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=Vapora Dark] [quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=Vapora Dark] [quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=Vapora Dark] [quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=Vapora Dark] Lol I actually like this change. Vulnerability to early jungle ganks are one of both Talon and Swain's biggest cons, especially Swain. Likewise for Swain, if I don't have a jungler, there's no one to decide they'd rather have the blue instead of me. And with the enemy team having no jungler, the chances of the enemy team actually stealing the blue are very slim. That's 2 of Swain's biggest cons gone overnight. Inb4 Swain tier 1. Viva la duo-top-olution! [/quote] Both [h2][b]Swain[/b][/h2] and Talon will not be able to lane mid anymore as they [h2][b]will be dominated by[/b][/h2] the high waveclear champs such as Lissandra, [h2][b]Zed[/b][/h2], Ziggs, etc. [/quote] wat Swain vs Zed is literally one of the most one-sided lanes for Swain I've ever played. You can't waveclear SHIT if you can't get close enough to the minions to cast W. Lissandra and Ziggs do technically counter Swain because of their wave-clear and range, but as I often like to say, playing against [[swain]] requires a high skillcap. If you make the mistake of getting hit by [[nevermove]], all the range in the world won't prevent Swain eating your face. Landing a random W as Swain often ends being a free kill if they don't flash, sometimes even despite a flash. And I don't recall Talon having trouble farming under the tower. In fact I more often find myself frustrated at the fact that the lane is in fact pushed too far towards my enemy's tower and I can't jump on them. And even if Talon did have it hard to CS under his tower, post-tiamat his waveclear is far better than [[ziggs]]', [[lissandra]]'s and [[zed]]'s. [/quote] I don't think I've read this amount of bullshit in one post in a long time. I'd advise you to stop jerking off to two champions and take a look around you. [/quote] It's not bullshit. I have a lot more experience with both champs than you do, and I've run those lanes multiple times. Talon with a Tiamat clears a full wave in 2 clicks, less than a second after casting W. Lissandra, Ziggs and Zed can't wave-clear that fast, and Ziggs + Lissandra need to use up more mana than him to clear an entire wave. Even pre-Tiamat, Talon stacks AD and has an auto-attack reset, last-hitting under the tower until he can compete in terms of wave-clear is nowhere near as much of a problem as it is for for most other AP carries. I've seen you say before that Kassadin deals well with being shoved to his tower because he can last-hit under the tower with W, and any AD champion does almost as much auto-attack damage or more than Kass with W turned on. Why would it be any different for Talon? I've ran Swain vs Zed like 10 times in ranked alone and it's no different to running Swain vs any other meelee. If Zed wants to farm, even with W, he's going to take a [[torment]], [[decrepify]] and a [[torment]]-enhanced auto-attack or two just to place his W near enough. If he tries to do it post-6 and gets snared, he'll likely die if he doesn't Flash. You may not believe that because Swain is only seen once every blue moon, but Swain's damage is retarded, and don't pretend you know exactly how much damage he does just because you're a mid lane main, you likely see Swain every 70 games or more, and because of his unpopularity, I'm assuming you've not played him extensively either to recognize how much damage he can out-put. Snaring someone at level 6 that can't CC you back in return like [[syndra]] can will 100% of the time either force them to recall on 20% HP or kill them. That's something I've noticed from maining him, and it's partly why I love him so much. I didn't just randomly take a liking to him and decide to exaggerate how good he is, I only like him because he's so strong. [/quote] TAlon's waveclear higher than lissandra? You high son? Also let's compare to zed with tiamat shall we? [/quote] How are you meant to have higher waveclear than someone who deletes minion waves in under a second? Clearing waves in 0.2 seconds? Somehow I can't see Zed or especially Lissandra doing that. Unless I'm mistaken, to clear a wave Zed would have to E + Tiamat the middle of the wave, and then have to clear the meelee minions' remaining HP with auto-attacks or Q. The ranged minions would presumably die to E + Q. Talon just needs to position himself in front of the meelee minions ( takes less time than positioning yourself PAST the meelee minions ), cast W and Tiamat, and the ranged minions will instantly die to W while the meelee minions die 0.2 seconds later to W + Tiamat. Unless E + Tiamat on Zed clears the full wave instantly, no, he doesn't wave-clear faster than Talon post-9 or even post-7. But hey if Riot ever implements a 0 second CD on [[zed]]'s E, I suppose he'll waveclear faster. [/quote] With some AD (like Tiamat) Zed's WEQ instantly destroys a minion wave including the cannon minion.[/quote]

[quote=Vapora Dark][quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=Vapora Dark] [quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=Vapora Dark] [quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=Vapora Dark] [quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=Vapora Dark] Lol I actually like this change. Vulnerability to early jungle ganks are one of both Talon and Swain's biggest cons, especially Swain. Likewise for Swain, if I don't have a jungler, there's no one to decide they'd rather have the blue instead of me. And with the enemy team having no jungler, the chances of the enemy team actually stealing the blue are very slim. That's 2 of Swain's biggest cons gone overnight. Inb4 Swain tier 1. Viva la duo-top-olution! [/quote] Both [h2][b]Swain[/b][/h2] and Talon will not be able to lane mid anymore as they [h2][b]will be dominated by[/b][/h2] the high waveclear champs such as Lissandra, [h2][b]Zed[/b][/h2], Ziggs, etc. [/quote] wat Swain vs Zed is literally one of the most one-sided lanes for Swain I've ever played. You can't waveclear SHIT if you can't get close enough to the minions to cast W. Lissandra and Ziggs do technically counter Swain because of their wave-clear and range, but as I often like to say, playing against [[swain]] requires a high skillcap. If you make the mistake of getting hit by [[nevermove]], all the range in the world won't prevent Swain eating your face. Landing a random W as Swain often ends being a free kill if they don't flash, sometimes even despite a flash. And I don't recall Talon having trouble farming under the tower. In fact I more often find myself frustrated at the fact that the lane is in fact pushed too far towards my enemy's tower and I can't jump on them. And even if Talon did have it hard to CS under his tower, post-tiamat his waveclear is far better than [[ziggs]]', [[lissandra]]'s and [[zed]]'s. [/quote] I don't think I've read this amount of bullshit in one post in a long time. I'd advise you to stop jerking off to two champions and take a look around you. [/quote] It's not bullshit. I have a lot more experience with both champs than you do, and I've run those lanes multiple times. Talon with a Tiamat clears a full wave in 2 clicks, less than a second after casting W. Lissandra, Ziggs and Zed can't wave-clear that fast, and Ziggs + Lissandra need to use up more mana than him to clear an entire wave. Even pre-Tiamat, Talon stacks AD and has an auto-attack reset, last-hitting under the tower until he can compete in terms of wave-clear is nowhere near as much of a problem as it is for for most other AP carries. I've seen you say before that Kassadin deals well with being shoved to his tower because he can last-hit under the tower with W, and any AD champion does almost as much auto-attack damage or more than Kass with W turned on. Why would it be any different for Talon? I've ran Swain vs Zed like 10 times in ranked alone and it's no different to running Swain vs any other meelee. If Zed wants to farm, even with W, he's going to take a [[torment]], [[decrepify]] and a [[torment]]-enhanced auto-attack or two just to place his W near enough. If he tries to do it post-6 and gets snared, he'll likely die if he doesn't Flash. You may not believe that because Swain is only seen once every blue moon, but Swain's damage is retarded, and don't pretend you know exactly how much damage he does just because you're a mid lane main, you likely see Swain every 70 games or more, and because of his unpopularity, I'm assuming you've not played him extensively either to recognize how much damage he can out-put. Snaring someone at level 6 that can't CC you back in return like [[syndra]] can will 100% of the time either force them to recall on 20% HP or kill them. That's something I've noticed from maining him, and it's partly why I love him so much. I didn't just randomly take a liking to him and decide to exaggerate how good he is, I only like him because he's so strong. [/quote] TAlon's waveclear higher than lissandra? You high son? Also let's compare to zed with tiamat shall we? [/quote] How are you meant to have higher waveclear than someone who deletes minion waves in under a second? Clearing waves in 0.2 seconds? Somehow I can't see Zed or especially Lissandra doing that. Unless I'm mistaken, to clear a wave Zed would have to E + Tiamat the middle of the wave, and then have to clear the meelee minions' remaining HP with auto-attacks or Q. The ranged minions would presumably die to E + Q. Talon just needs to position himself in front of the meelee minions ( takes less time than positioning yourself PAST the meelee minions ), cast W and Tiamat, and the ranged minions will instantly die to W while the meelee minions die 0.2 seconds later to W + Tiamat. Unless E + Tiamat on Zed clears the full wave instantly, no, he doesn't wave-clear faster than Talon post-9 or even post-7. But hey if Riot ever implements a 0 second CD on [[zed]]'s E, I suppose he'll waveclear faster. [/quote] With some AD (like Tiamat) Zed's WEQ instantly destroys a minion wave including the cannon minion. [/quote] That's still slower than Talon's waveclear combo though, and using your entire kit to try and waveclear like that is pretty stupid. If Zed has everything on CD with low energy you can bet your ass I'll take advantage and jump him. Anyway this is pointless, I don't care who has faster waveclear. I just wanted to point out that waveclear doesn't counter a champion with waveclear.[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=Vapora Dark] [quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=Vapora Dark] [quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=Vapora Dark] [quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=Vapora Dark] [quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=Vapora Dark] Lol I actually like this change. Vulnerability to early jungle ganks are one of both Talon and Swain's biggest cons, especially Swain. Likewise for Swain, if I don't have a jungler, there's no one to decide they'd rather have the blue instead of me. And with the enemy team having no jungler, the chances of the enemy team actually stealing the blue are very slim. That's 2 of Swain's biggest cons gone overnight. Inb4 Swain tier 1. Viva la duo-top-olution! [/quote] Both [h2][b]Swain[/b][/h2] and Talon will not be able to lane mid anymore as they [h2][b]will be dominated by[/b][/h2] the high waveclear champs such as Lissandra, [h2][b]Zed[/b][/h2], Ziggs, etc. [/quote] wat Swain vs Zed is literally one of the most one-sided lanes for Swain I've ever played. You can't waveclear SHIT if you can't get close enough to the minions to cast W. Lissandra and Ziggs do technically counter Swain because of their wave-clear and range, but as I often like to say, playing against [[swain]] requires a high skillcap. If you make the mistake of getting hit by [[nevermove]], all the range in the world won't prevent Swain eating your face. Landing a random W as Swain often ends being a free kill if they don't flash, sometimes even despite a flash. And I don't recall Talon having trouble farming under the tower. In fact I more often find myself frustrated at the fact that the lane is in fact pushed too far towards my enemy's tower and I can't jump on them. And even if Talon did have it hard to CS under his tower, post-tiamat his waveclear is far better than [[ziggs]]', [[lissandra]]'s and [[zed]]'s. [/quote] I don't think I've read this amount of bullshit in one post in a long time. I'd advise you to stop jerking off to two champions and take a look around you. [/quote] It's not bullshit. I have a lot more experience with both champs than you do, and I've run those lanes multiple times. Talon with a Tiamat clears a full wave in 2 clicks, less than a second after casting W. Lissandra, Ziggs and Zed can't wave-clear that fast, and Ziggs + Lissandra need to use up more mana than him to clear an entire wave. Even pre-Tiamat, Talon stacks AD and has an auto-attack reset, last-hitting under the tower until he can compete in terms of wave-clear is nowhere near as much of a problem as it is for for most other AP carries. I've seen you say before that Kassadin deals well with being shoved to his tower because he can last-hit under the tower with W, and any AD champion does almost as much auto-attack damage or more than Kass with W turned on. Why would it be any different for Talon? I've ran Swain vs Zed like 10 times in ranked alone and it's no different to running Swain vs any other meelee. If Zed wants to farm, even with W, he's going to take a [[torment]], [[decrepify]] and a [[torment]]-enhanced auto-attack or two just to place his W near enough. If he tries to do it post-6 and gets snared, he'll likely die if he doesn't Flash. You may not believe that because Swain is only seen once every blue moon, but Swain's damage is retarded, and don't pretend you know exactly how much damage he does just because you're a mid lane main, you likely see Swain every 70 games or more, and because of his unpopularity, I'm assuming you've not played him extensively either to recognize how much damage he can out-put. Snaring someone at level 6 that can't CC you back in return like [[syndra]] can will 100% of the time either force them to recall on 20% HP or kill them. That's something I've noticed from maining him, and it's partly why I love him so much. I didn't just randomly take a liking to him and decide to exaggerate how good he is, I only like him because he's so strong. [/quote] TAlon's waveclear higher than lissandra? You high son? Also let's compare to zed with tiamat shall we? [/quote] How are you meant to have higher waveclear than someone who deletes minion waves in under a second? Clearing waves in 0.2 seconds? Somehow I can't see Zed or especially Lissandra doing that. Unless I'm mistaken, to clear a wave Zed would have to E + Tiamat the middle of the wave, and then have to clear the meelee minions' remaining HP with auto-attacks or Q. The ranged minions would presumably die to E + Q. Talon just needs to position himself in front of the meelee minions ( takes less time than positioning yourself PAST the meelee minions ), cast W and Tiamat, and the ranged minions will instantly die to W while the meelee minions die 0.2 seconds later to W + Tiamat. Unless E + Tiamat on Zed clears the full wave instantly, no, he doesn't wave-clear faster than Talon post-9 or even post-7. But hey if Riot ever implements a 0 second CD on [[zed]]'s E, I suppose he'll waveclear faster. [/quote] With some AD (like Tiamat) Zed's WEQ instantly destroys a minion wave including the cannon minion. [/quote] That's still slower than Talon's waveclear combo though, and using your entire kit to try and waveclear like that is pretty stupid. If Zed has everything on CD with low energy you can bet your ass I'll take advantage and jump him. Anyway this is pointless, I don't care who has faster waveclear. I just wanted to point out that waveclear doesn't counter a champion with waveclear. [/quote] Resources count too, Talon runs out of mana doing so and has no jungler to hand him the blue buff (as that was the thing that started all this). I don't agree that it's entirely pointless to have this debate but it was never really about Zed vs Talon anyway. I'm sure Talon can keep up with waveclear champs if he somehow gets his hands on the blue buff but Swain can't do this with or without blue and that's why I'm saying Swain will never be a T1 mid-laner. I do really enjoy him top though.[/quote]

[quote=Vapora Dark][quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=Vapora Dark] [quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=Vapora Dark] [quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=Vapora Dark] [quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=Vapora Dark] [quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=Vapora Dark] Lol I actually like this change. Vulnerability to early jungle ganks are one of both Talon and Swain's biggest cons, especially Swain. Likewise for Swain, if I don't have a jungler, there's no one to decide they'd rather have the blue instead of me. And with the enemy team having no jungler, the chances of the enemy team actually stealing the blue are very slim. That's 2 of Swain's biggest cons gone overnight. Inb4 Swain tier 1. Viva la duo-top-olution! [/quote] Both [h2][b]Swain[/b][/h2] and Talon will not be able to lane mid anymore as they [h2][b]will be dominated by[/b][/h2] the high waveclear champs such as Lissandra, [h2][b]Zed[/b][/h2], Ziggs, etc. [/quote] wat Swain vs Zed is literally one of the most one-sided lanes for Swain I've ever played. You can't waveclear SHIT if you can't get close enough to the minions to cast W. Lissandra and Ziggs do technically counter Swain because of their wave-clear and range, but as I often like to say, playing against [[swain]] requires a high skillcap. If you make the mistake of getting hit by [[nevermove]], all the range in the world won't prevent Swain eating your face. Landing a random W as Swain often ends being a free kill if they don't flash, sometimes even despite a flash. And I don't recall Talon having trouble farming under the tower. In fact I more often find myself frustrated at the fact that the lane is in fact pushed too far towards my enemy's tower and I can't jump on them. And even if Talon did have it hard to CS under his tower, post-tiamat his waveclear is far better than [[ziggs]]', [[lissandra]]'s and [[zed]]'s. [/quote] I don't think I've read this amount of bullshit in one post in a long time. I'd advise you to stop jerking off to two champions and take a look around you. [/quote] It's not bullshit. I have a lot more experience with both champs than you do, and I've run those lanes multiple times. Talon with a Tiamat clears a full wave in 2 clicks, less than a second after casting W. Lissandra, Ziggs and Zed can't wave-clear that fast, and Ziggs + Lissandra need to use up more mana than him to clear an entire wave. Even pre-Tiamat, Talon stacks AD and has an auto-attack reset, last-hitting under the tower until he can compete in terms of wave-clear is nowhere near as much of a problem as it is for for most other AP carries. I've seen you say before that Kassadin deals well with being shoved to his tower because he can last-hit under the tower with W, and any AD champion does almost as much auto-attack damage or more than Kass with W turned on. Why would it be any different for Talon? I've ran Swain vs Zed like 10 times in ranked alone and it's no different to running Swain vs any other meelee. If Zed wants to farm, even with W, he's going to take a [[torment]], [[decrepify]] and a [[torment]]-enhanced auto-attack or two just to place his W near enough. If he tries to do it post-6 and gets snared, he'll likely die if he doesn't Flash. You may not believe that because Swain is only seen once every blue moon, but Swain's damage is retarded, and don't pretend you know exactly how much damage he does just because you're a mid lane main, you likely see Swain every 70 games or more, and because of his unpopularity, I'm assuming you've not played him extensively either to recognize how much damage he can out-put. Snaring someone at level 6 that can't CC you back in return like [[syndra]] can will 100% of the time either force them to recall on 20% HP or kill them. That's something I've noticed from maining him, and it's partly why I love him so much. I didn't just randomly take a liking to him and decide to exaggerate how good he is, I only like him because he's so strong. [/quote] TAlon's waveclear higher than lissandra? You high son? Also let's compare to zed with tiamat shall we? [/quote] How are you meant to have higher waveclear than someone who deletes minion waves in under a second? Clearing waves in 0.2 seconds? Somehow I can't see Zed or especially Lissandra doing that. Unless I'm mistaken, to clear a wave Zed would have to E + Tiamat the middle of the wave, and then have to clear the meelee minions' remaining HP with auto-attacks or Q. The ranged minions would presumably die to E + Q. Talon just needs to position himself in front of the meelee minions ( takes less time than positioning yourself PAST the meelee minions ), cast W and Tiamat, and the ranged minions will instantly die to W while the meelee minions die 0.2 seconds later to W + Tiamat. Unless E + Tiamat on Zed clears the full wave instantly, no, he doesn't wave-clear faster than Talon post-9 or even post-7. But hey if Riot ever implements a 0 second CD on [[zed]]'s E, I suppose he'll waveclear faster. [/quote] With some AD (like Tiamat) Zed's WEQ instantly destroys a minion wave including the cannon minion. [/quote] That's still slower than Talon's waveclear combo though, and using your entire kit to try and waveclear like that is pretty stupid. If Zed has everything on CD with low energy you can bet your ass I'll take advantage and jump him. Anyway this is pointless, I don't care who has faster waveclear. I just wanted to point out that waveclear doesn't counter a champion with waveclear. [/quote] Resources count too, Talon runs out of mana doing so and has no jungler to hand him the blue buff (as that was the thing that started all this). I don't agree that it's entirely pointless to have this debate but it was never really about Zed vs Talon anyway. I'm sure Talon can keep up with waveclear champs if he somehow gets his hands on the blue buff but Swain can't do this with or without blue and that's why I'm saying Swain will never be a T1 mid-laner. I do really enjoy him top though. [/quote] Talon can easily solo blue anyway, I have no issue with that. And it would take a long time for Talon to run out of mana if all he does is cast W once every minion wave. Swain IS countered by waveclear, but it's also extremely easy to punish mistakes by the enemy, such as not managing to dodge [[nevermove]]. If you throw random W's and the 4th one hits, it can often end in a kill or forcing your opponent off lane. I think Swain is stronger at low Elos ( anything lower than ~diamond 3, anyway ) than people think, but he's not played because the pros say he's bad. His weaknesses are: 1. Super weak to jungle ganks. 2. Take his blue and he's lost his lane if he didn't already get ahead. 3. Champs with long range and high waveclear counter him because the former will never enter his range and the latter force him to either miss a ton of last-hits under the tower, or force him to use up all his mana tanking the minion wave with his ult. But in low Elos: 1. People aren't smart enough to gank Swain just because he's Swain. They don't realize ganking him is basically a free kill if you play it well, especially pre-6. 2. People aren't smart enough to steal Swain's blue most of the time. They steal blue if they feel like it, not specifically because there's a Swain on the enemy team. 3. Players aren't good enough to dodge every [[nevermove]]. They dodge it maybe 60%-80% of the time, depending on the player. One hit on [[nevermove]] is enough to turn a lane around for [[swain]]. ( Apart from against [[syndra]], fuck that champ ) I was joking about tier 1, but I do think he's about to become stronger at all Elos, at least temporarily, while this duo top meta transpires, because it basically completely removes weaknesses 1 and 2. Put Swain in a lane against anyone that doesn't strictly counter him and he'll dominate it with no jungle pressure and him taking blue 99% of the time. And even bad lanes can be won by landing a few lucky [[nevermove]]s. And while [[swain]] can't compete in terms of waveclear, if he has a blue, he can at least tank the minion wave with his ult to stop the tower taking CS. Edit: Top [[swain]] can also be pretty strong, especially against champions with no gap closers / prone to kiting.[/quote]