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[6.24] The Dragon Nears - S7 Shyvana Guide
Build Guide By LyteChai
52
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5,761,274
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52
5
5,761,274
Views
256
Comments
Shyvana Build Guide By LyteChai
5,761,274
Views
256
Comments
Shyvana Build Guide By LyteChai
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Shyvana Guide
[6.24] The Dragon Nears - S7 Shyvana Guide
Thank you!
I guess this is not true, because Hydra gives your Q an extra 60-75 on-hit dmg even on your main target.
E>auto>Q>TH is common and works. (If your using titanic at the same time you're Q is active however, that isn't the right combo)
It's a burst combo, and you may have to adjust just how much burst you're putting out. Not every situation will be the same.
The passive increase on hydra is "40 (+ 2.5% maximum health)", while active it is "40 (+ 10% maximum health)". That is quite a huge difference. Surely the combo should be E, AA, Hydra, AA, Q. When you pop W should depend on when you need the MS.
While W is definitely good for movespeed, it makes up a large chunk of your early to mid game damage. So it should depend more on who you're fighting.
Get on those forums and be vocal guys. It's our only chance.
I would definitely prefer something more consistent and reliable, something I can depend on.
For Burnout, I am definitely sad to see the trail leave, because not only was it great in terms of theme, but gameplay as well. I know I'm one of the people who will pop ult while fighting the big objectives (pretty sure I even mention it as a tip in my guide). It's huge in teamfights, and hilarious if a carry tries chasing. They always seem to underestimate the damage.
One thing you didn't mention in your write-up was how her new "passive" affects a CDR build (understandable, I do acknowledge that CDR Dragon is a niche build, and not the type you use). It could hurt my playstyle a lot. Shyvana has no mana, which means a lot of the CDR items are useless for her. And if they're going to remove the free resistances, that means I must get them from runes instead. And it'll probably force me to go Trinity Force all the time, whereas right now I do have options.
At least her ult is unstoppable. Don't get me wrong, I am beyond excited for that change and can't wait to ruin some Vayne's day, but I am watching them carefully.
My favorite items on her are definitely Frozen Mallet and Maw of Malmortius. To be honest, I don't get to build either of those on her in most games, and almost never both. But when the opportunity arises, and the enemy's mid and ADC are immobile with no displacement CC, these two items are game-breaking. The sheer amount of control Mallet and Maw give Shyvana over the flow of a teamfight creates one of the highest points I've ever had in League.
Two items I don't like building on her are Titanic Hydra and Dead Man's Plate. I'm not a fan of the funky hitbox on Titanic. If I need AoE auto-attacks, I'd rather buy Ravenous Hydra and Spirit Visage (another amazing item combo). While the passive movespeed of Dead Man's is nice, its cost, stats, and slow are mediocre. It also discourages Shyvana from auto-attacking minions or nearby jungle camps in a siege to charge up her Fury bar, since the charge time to get to the slow is abysmally long without the Homeguard buff. I'd much rather build Randuin's Omen, Sunfire Cape, or even Thornmail.
Like you, I've also come to appreciate Trinity Force on Shyvana, but not as much as I probably should. Especially with Enchantment: Bloodrazor. I'll use this guide for the next few games I play on her and see how it goes. One of the few drawbacks to CDR Shyvana is the lack of Scaling Magic Resist glyphs, since stacking MR is so strong right now. I'll try to find a balance and comment again with my results.
But the thing is, you want to be out there in field ready to gank and counter jungle as fast as you can. Not full clearing and basicaly doing nothing.
To be honest, your guide is pretty good, it has a lot of details. I would suggest this guide maybe to all bronze-Silver-Low Gold out there who wants to try shyvana jungle. If you trying to climb to diamond with shyvana jungle, nah i wouldnt suggest this at all. Sated shyvana is gone, you guys might aswell pick otehr junglers to main.
My point with the full clear is that it's possible, not to do it every game. I just usually try to recall with at least 750g-800g after my first clear, so that I can get my Stalker's Blade and maybe a pink or couple of pots.
I realize that you're reading this guide after Sated has been removed, but I've always tried making a point that you could stacks off of kills and assists, trying to encourage ganking and counterjungling + dueling. Not the afk farm style. That doesn't mean people would automatically go and take my advice, but I was fully aware that the playstyle didn't work and was not fun to play with as a laner. So I tried to encourage something else. Her ganks aren't the best, but they can work with a little experience and a couple of handy slows.
And thanks :D I've worked really hard on this guide. Perhaps the focus would change if I ever reach the higher ranks, or maybe I'd switch to Machete by then. I'm hoping it'll always remain CDR focused, as I really like the ability uptime and sustained damage output.
I'm sorry if this comment seems all over the place or something, I'm really exhausted from work, but I didn't want to let this sit for much longer. I try to be prompt with my replies.
You need 3 camps to buy talisman.
Machete+Talisman gives you the maximum sustain+exp gain in the jungle.
As shyvana you want to be able to get as much xp as possible from your camps and from counter jungling.
Shyvana is pretty **** at Ganking so your job is to counter jungle when you saw enemy jungler gank.
Yes, you going to end up smiting jungle camps and not champions.
And Thats why Machete+talisman is all you need
The issue was more than your response to talisman vs mechete, but im not explaining that.
The difference between the two is more significant with full clears and properly doing camps (kiting included). Full clears are not bad to do when u have the opportunity to do so, or it would be very common to only do one side by now.
Ill spectate you. direct message me.
You never do full clear at the beginning. You clear 3 camps, what ever side and then you recall and get your talisman then get the next 3 camps.
BUILD FULL TANK!
Blood Razor is trash. That item is not for shyvana, why? people will not stand next to you and eat your autos. Blood razor is best for kindred.
You never do full clear at the beginning. You clear 3 camps, what ever side and then you recall and get your talisman then get the next 3 camps.
BUILD FULL TANK!
Blood Razor is trash. That item is not for shyvana, why? people will not stand next to you and eat your autos. Blood razor is best for kindred.
And whats up with the CDR? ya shyvana does have long cool downs, but you dont need CDR with shyvana xD. you just dont.
To address the Talisman vs Machete - Talisman has superior sustain over the latter. "Damaging a monster applies HEALTH DRAIN, which deals 25 magic damage over 5 seconds while restoring as much as health." Whereas Machete is just lifesteal. Lifesteal is directly affected by your damage, which is not much in the early game, even with full AD runes. Since Shyvana has her Burnout, which will hit all the monsters in a camp, she gains a tremendous amount of health back for simply turning on her W. I'm able to do a full clear with Talisman, usually finishing with 1/3 to 1/2 health, even without grabbing Rift Scuttler.
"BUILD FULL TANK!" - I do have a full tank option listed here actually, starting with Cinderhulk and Titanic. I prefer Bloodrazor as it has attack speed, which Shyvana scales off of. It also has maximum health damage, something that synergizes with her Flame Breath, causing her to be a hybrid damage dealer, making her more difficult to itemize against. It's also useful against tanks, who are more likely to "stand next to you and eat your autos". While Shyvana can't peel as well as a Naut, she can however fight the enemy divers and distract.
I choose to go CDR on Shyvana because it drastically lowers her cooldowns. This means more double procs from Twin Bite. Double procs means more damage from Bork/Bloodrazor/Titanic, Flame Breath's on-hit, and Burnout's on-hit. This also double procs her fury regen, which means you get Dragon's Descent back faster, and can maintain her Dragon form for much longer, and more easily.
Burnout will have near permanent uptime, which means near permanent move speed boost. Not to mention the constant trail of fire. With 30% CDR, Burnout has a 8.4s cooldown, with a 7 second max duration. Since the cooldown starts as soon as you activate the ability, that's only 1.4s inbetween Burnouts, instead of the 5s. With 40%, that's a 7.2s cooldown, which means only 0.2s downtime. With 45%, that's a 6.6s cooldown, meaning no downtime whatsoever. Since the trail of fire and the circular AoE of Burnout stacks, you can easily deal tons of damage in a teamfight, especially to any carries that you catch. Which, if you have built slows (and/or have cc on the team), is not that hard to do.
With a bit of CDR, Flame Breath has more uptime as well. With 30% CDR, it has a 5.6s cooldown, and the mark lasts for 5s. That's only 0.6s downtime. With 40%, that's a 4.8s cooldown. With 45%, it's 4.4s. Since a lot of her damage comes from the on-hit here, especially against tanks, this allows Shyvana to do her job better - shredding tanks.
I've been running a CDR-based build on Shyvana for years now, and she's consistently been one of my highest winrate and best performance champions. I did take a look at your profile, since you have your summoner name listed, and I see that you are Diamond V. So I might be missing something here. Maybe not, as Nightblue3 has referenced my guide in the past, and even said that while it's weird, it definitely works and possibly feels better than the standard set up.
And while I was looking at your profile (on op.gg), I noticed you have a Shyvana game. Tell me, if I'm supposed to go full tank, why did you first rush a Blade of the Ruined King followed up by a Bloodrazor? With Fervor of Battle no less. Any of the Resolve keystones are better for full tank builds.
I was curious about this and tested it in-game since it's a lot harder to just theorize which is better.
I had to run the test with each item twice, with different masteries the second time, to get relevant results since your specific masteries are reaaaaaally bad for clearing, and you'll see why. (Refillable potion always btw)
My masteries (http://i.imgur.com/hRZIQJ4.png):
Hunter's Talisman - 3:03 clear finish at ~330 HP.
Hunter's Machete - 3:02 clear finish at ~45 HP.
So Hunter's Machete has marginally faster clear times, but definitely loses out on sustain as you said, by far.
And uh, here's my test with your masteries:
Hunter's Talisman - 3:10 clear finish at 128 HP.
Hunter's Machete - ... died at wolves at 2:45.
I wanted to test clear speed as much as sustain advantage, so as you can see I had no choice but to change to a mastery page better suited for clearing, so that the Machete start could actually finish (barely) a clear. :P
Notes:
- The clears were purely for testing which was better/faster/healthier, they're not realistic estimates of how quick/healthy your clear will be in a real game since you'd be getting a pull.
- I never kited monsters, only stood in place auto-attacking them, to make sure that kiting better/worse didn't inflate the performance of any one item, so even in realistic 100% solo clears you would actually end up with higher HP with both items (and maybe not die to wolves with Machete with your masteries).
- The clear was ignoring both blue and red buff since it's the clear that gives the most overall XP, smiting Krugs and Gromp.
- I started Krugs. I did test a clear of Gromp start with the final rune page assuming it would help Talisman more than Machete, but actually Machete cleared 4 seconds faster than Krugs start (-100 HP), while Talisman only cleared 1 second faster (-45 HP).
- 99% of people run flat armor on Shyvana, not scaling armor. Having less sustain is less of an issue if you still have enough sustain either way, and flat armor would make your first clear much healthier, making Machete's weakness less significant.
- Likewise the CDR/lvl quintessences contribute almost nothing to your clear, whereas AS quints are what's standard on Shyvana. AS quints would increase the effectiveness of Machete start but not so much of Talisman start.
I ended up testing both again another 2 times, this time with x9 AS marks and x3 AS quints, and then with x9 AD marks and x3 AS quints (my masteries again).
AS marks:
Hunter's Talisman - 3:01 clear finish at 492 HP.
Hunter's Machete - 3:00 clear finish at 232 HP.
AD marks:
Hunter's Talisman - 3:00 clear finish at 355 HP.
Hunter's Machete - 2:59 clear finish at 240 HP.
The argument for taking Machete actually gets stronger and stronger the more optimized your runes (and masteries) are. With all 3 rune pages Machete is 1 second faster than Talisman (3 seconds faster with the best page and Gromp start), and the difference in final HP after the overall clear goes from ~280 to ~260 to ~145. This is because Talisman gives flat sustain (25 HP over 5 seconds per monster damaged), while Machete's sustain is a % of the damage you deal in auto-attacks, so the more damage you do in auto-attacks thanks to better runes, the more sustain Machete will give. And while still having less sustain than Talisman, by doing more damage and making the clear quicker, it means that less time fighting camps = less time spent sustaining = difference in sustain between the two items becomes not as significant.
Overall I'll say that the difference doesn't seem to be huge, but the difference goes even further in favour of Machete if you get a pull from your bot or top lane, so while the difference is small, why not just go for the slightly stronger item?
Though the difference in sustain does help make up for running masteries that don't help your clear much, so Talisman is objectively better with your setup, but why wouldn't you just go for the best clearing masteries on a jungler anyway?
Also while the concept of high CDR on Shyvana does sound interesting, your runes kind of contradict themselves regarding the importance of CDR. 15% CDR glyphs are better than 15% CDR quints because of the opportunity cost, 15% attack speed > 27 MR@18. Your quints say "CDR is better than 15% attack speed", but your glyphs say "MR is better than CDR".
The overall message it sends is like, MR > CDR > attack speed. But you don't really think MR/lvl glyphs are better than AS quints, do you?
Talisman vs Machete
--
Also while the concept of high CDR on Shyvana does sound interesting, your runes kind of contradict themselves regarding the importance of CDR. 15% CDR glyphs are better than 15% CDR quints because of the opportunity cost, 15% attack speed > 27 MR@18. Your quints say "CDR is better than 15% attack speed", but your glyphs say "MR is better than CDR".
The overall message it sends is like, MR > CDR > attack speed. But you don't really think MR/lvl glyphs are better than AS quints, do you?
I'll probably stick with Talisman, even with optimized runes and masteries for a first clear, because I value the ~145 extra health over the 1s faster clear. That extra health can either allow me to gank, or survive an invade. She still has some of the fastest clear times in the game regardless.
My masteries are with late game in mind, hence why I take
And thank you for your thoughts about the runes and trying to fit CDR in there. It's been difficult to cap on CDR for a while now, since Shyvana doesn't use mana. That rules out items like IBG and Frozen Heart. Trinity is currently meh because the crit is near useless and the attack is too low (next patch that will change, I'm pretty excited for it). And I keep forgetting that Warmogs has CDR now. So I started to use my Quints to get the cap... and even settled for 30% as it wasn't a massive difference. I'll take a look at my runes for this patch, as you made a good point about the CDR vs attack speed vs MR/lvl. I love having CDR on Shyv, but attack speed is definitely her best offensive stat.
Also, thank you for not outright rejecting the idea of CDR, and thank you for trying to help me better optimize for it. And thank you for so thoroughly testing Talisman and Machete.
I would like to point out, that the clear speed is a very small difference with or without a leash. I'd personally rather end my clear with a ton more hp for a minor 1-2 seconds extra time.
Also how does the quints say CDR is better than 15% Attack Spd, when its in the marks alrdy. >.> You have no real reason to bring AD runes over Attack Spd ones imo.
Clear speed is a very big difference with a bot lane leash actually. And it isn't "a ton more" HP if you run a proper setup and get a leash. Even with no leash and scaling armor seals I still ended the first clear with more than enough HP.
15% attack speed is 15% attack speed no matter how much attack speed you already have from your runes beforehand. By taking x9 AS marks you're implying that 15% attack speed > 8.5 AD. By taking x3 CDR/lvl quints you're implying that 15% CDR/lvl 18 > 15% attack speed.
If you think attack speed > CDR, then you should take attack speed in quints because it's a more slot-efficient rune for Shyvana. It doesn't matter that you already have attack speed in marks, it's not like you'll be overcapping. The more the better.
And my point was more that it's bizarre that his priorities in runes are scaling MR > scaling CDR > attack speed. If he really wants that 15% scaling CDR from somewhere, a much more effective way of doing it would be x9 CDR/lvl glyphs and x3 AS quints.
As for the AD marks, I saw AD marks AS quints were the highest winrate runes on Shyvana and I decided it was worth testing them as well for the sake of being thorough.. They turned out to have the fastest first clear. I don't know how good they are after that though.
Id rather take Talisman over Machete any day on an AoE heavy champion, and yes I consider 15% attack spd > 8.5 AD on Shyvana jg who doesn't scale off AD as much as she does attack spd. Also I'd gladly switch out two of the CDR quints after the buffed Trinity Force arrives next week. Getting best of both worlds that way. Having both a lot of CDR as well as attack spd feels best to me.
4.5k+ hp
1.95 attack spd
170+ armor and mr
35% CDR
Nothing to snuff at as full build imo
So take attack speed quints and CDR/lvl glyphs. I have no problem with Talisman, but there's something seriously wrong with thinking that CDR/lvl quints are better than CDR/lvl glyphs, or in other words, that attack speed quints are worse than MR/lvl glyphs.
I don't think CDR/lvl quints are better than glyph versions but then there's no mr in the runes that way. Which works still yes (I used to run it), though I like how it works now, and will like what I'm changing it to next patch even more.
Which will be,
9 Att Spd Marks
9 Armor/lvl Seals
9 Mr/lvl Glyphs
1 CDR/lvl + 2 Att Spd Quints