Phil Collins wrote:
Everyone knows flat AD > armor pen for early game and your runes are supposed to help you jungle faster early game.
"Everyone knows" -- SMH. Does no one do their own thinking?
I've already done this experiment with
Kindred, but since we're talking about Rengar, I'll start up a custom game using Rengar and see what the level one damage to monsters is for his basic attack and Q while using 9x armor penetration marks (12 armor penetration total):Big Krug-- aa: 68 q: 99
Big red-- aa: 64 q: 93
Big Raptor-- aa: 67 q: 97
Big Wolf-- aa: 68 q: 99
Big Blue-- aa: 64 q: 93
Gromp-- aa: 67 q: 97
Now, using 9x damage marks (+8.5 AD total):
Big Krug-- aa: 70 q: 97
Big Red-- aa: 65 q: 91
Big Raptor-- aa: 68 q: 95
Big Wolf-- aa: 71 q: 100
Big Blue-- aa: 65 q: 91
Gromp-- aa: 68 q: 95
As you can see, the damage from both options at level 1 is virtually identical to the point that the number of hits needed to kill a camp will likely be exactly the same. Meanwhile, as you level up (increasing base damage of skills) and add more AD items, the damage multiplier from armor penetration marks will easily cause more damage versus champions compared to the AD marks.
Now I hear you cry, "But once you build warrior with its 10 armor penetration, then your armor penetration marks will be wasted in the jungle!" That's partly true. Normal jungle monsters have their armor ranging from 9-20, so you'll only get partial benefit from armor penetration in the jungle against them at that point. However, by the time you finish warrior, you'll be destroying camps so quickly, it won't matter. Also, Dragon, scuttle crabs, and Baron have 21, 60, and 120 armor, respectively, so your armor penetration marks will still help against them.
MungoGeri wrote:
"Everyone knows" -- SMH. Does no one do their own thinking?
I've already done this experiment with
Kindred, but since we're talking about Rengar, I'll start up a custom game using Rengar and see what the level one damage to monsters is for his basic attack and Q while using 9x armor penetration marks (12 armor penetration total):Big Krug-- aa: 68 q: 99
Big red-- aa: 64 q: 93
Big Raptor-- aa: 67 q: 97
Big Wolf-- aa: 68 q: 99
Big Blue-- aa: 64 q: 93
Gromp-- aa: 67 q: 97
Now, using 9x damage marks (+8.5 AD total):
Big Krug-- aa: 70 q: 97
Big Red-- aa: 65 q: 91
Big Raptor-- aa: 68 q: 95
Big Wolf-- aa: 71 q: 100
Big Blue-- aa: 65 q: 91
Gromp-- aa: 68 q: 95
As you can see, the damage from both options at level 1 is virtually identical to the point that the number of hits needed to kill a camp will likely be exactly the same. Meanwhile, as you level up (increasing base damage of skills) and add more AD items, the damage multiplier from armor penetration marks will easily cause more damage versus champions compared to the AD marks.
Now I hear you cry, "But once you build warrior with its 10 armor penetration, then your armor penetration marks will be wasted in the jungle!" That's partly true. Normal jungle monsters have their armor ranging from 9-20, so you'll only get partial benefit from armor penetration in the jungle against them at that point. However, by the time you finish warrior, you'll be destroying camps so quickly, it won't matter. Also, Dragon, scuttle crabs, and Baron have 21, 60, and 120 armor, respectively, so your armor penetration marks will still help against them.
You don't need to do your own thinking when it's general knowledge. Early game, no one has armor, so you take flat AD. Simple as that. Your test is also flawed because you didn't calculate masteries and you didn't state what quints you used. Even if you test is legit you can see that every single normal autoattack rengar does with flat AD does more damage than the flat armor pen. It's only 'virtually identical' when you only compare the first autoattacks. But when you keep autoattacking, the flat AD rengar will start to do more damage in total because that **** adds up.
And you do know that
Rengar has super high ratios right. There is no point in getting flat armor pen when you're gonna grab Last Whisper anyway.MungoGeri wrote:
As you can see, the damage from both options at level 1 is virtually identical to the point that the number of hits needed to kill a camp will likely be exactly the same.
Did you do the math?
Quints add 6.75 AD, masteries add an extra +4 and +0.55 per level and you autoattack more times than use Q (especially if you're taking the AS mastery), but I'm assuming these are non-factors because you the Quints and masteries should remain the same regardless of whether you go armor pen marks or AD marks (but you should really state which ones you used).
Last Whisper and Youmuu's Ghostblade will give you enough armor penetration anyway, so you just need to concentrate on your early clears and your own maths show it to be the case that AD is better than armor penetration for early clear.
Last Whisper and Youmuu's Ghostblade will give you enough armor penetration anyway, so you just need to concentrate on your early clears and your own maths show it to be the case that AD is better than armor penetration for early clear.
Quoted:
You don't need to do your own thinking when it's general knowledge.
Until "general knowledge" changes, because oddly the LOL community doesn't seem to adapt to changes in the game efficiently.
Quoted:
Early game, no one has armor, so you take flat AD. Simple as that.
Everyone starts with some armor, even if they don't have any armor runes or masteries. Armor penetration works against everyone at the start and becomes more powerful as the game progresses. Simple as that.
Quoted:
Your test is also flawed because you didn't calculate masteries and you didn't state what quints you used.
I didn't need to calculate, although I can do that, too. I simply experimented. I used standard 21/9/0 offensive and jungle masteries, although none of that would affect anything about the results. The Quints happened to be fast attack speed Quints, and so were irrelevant, since I was only testing armor penetration marks versus AD marks. If you replace the Quints with AD quints, armor penetration marks would actually come out slightly better by comparison because of their multiplicative effects.
Quoted:
Even if you test is legit dsyou can see that every single normal autoattack rengar does with flat AD does more damage than the flat armor pen. It's only 'virtually identical' when you only compare the first autoattacks. But when you keep autoattacking, the flat AD rengar will start to do more damage in total because that **** adds up.
The key question is how many hits will it take you to kill a camp. Will the 1-2 extra damage on each auto-attack and 1-2 less damage on each Q add up enough to the point where you have to swing an extra time to kill the camp? And in the unlikely case that that is so, is saving that extra swing enough to justify the much stronger long term power that armor penetration will give later in the game?
Quoted:
And you do know that Rengar has super high ratios right.
Rengar has super high ratios right.That's great. And you know that armor penetration will end up multiplying the damage on those high ratios, so the more AD you get from items during the game, the more damage armor penetration will provide?
Quoted:
There is no point in getting flat armor pen when you're gonna grab Last Whisper anyway.
Last Whisper anyway.Last whisper reduces armor by a percentage, while flat armor pen reduces armor by, well, a flat amount. Flat armor penetration is calculated after percentage penetration, so flat armor penetration gets stronger the more percentage penetration you have (unless the calculation would get you to below zero). So, to have the strongest armor penetration, you want to have a combination of flat and percentage based penetration if you ever want to get some place close to dealing true damage.
Quoted:
Did you do the math?
No, but I can estimate that the odds of a camp needing an extra swing would be on the order of about 30% -- meaning that we're probably talking about two extra swings during a full jungle clear on
Rengar. It would probably be less on a character who has AOE skills and doesn't have to worry as much about counting swings on smaller monsters. Also, since Rengar would be leveling up during the jungle clear, making armor penetration stronger, it's possible that we're talking about less than two swings.If you are serious that you want to know how many extra swings a jungle clear will take with armor penetration marks versus AD marks, because you are genuinely tempted to try this, yes I would be happy to do some experiments.
I don't think either of you have made your case well enough. MungoGeri's numbers are a start but don't really show the difference between the runes over the course of the early game. Phil Collins has made some counterpoints, but no real evidence proving that AD marks give Rengar a (meaningfully) stronger early game.
One thing you could try is doing a normal clear (with a leash maybe) in a custom with each rune setup and see how much damage you take and when you finish your clear. You could also test how long it takes to kill a given champion with each setup while spamming abilities as well as autos to simulate a gank or 1v1 situation.
If you're better with league math than me, show exactly how much value you get out of the armor pen at different stages of the game against different targets using autoattacks and abilities.
Also I don't see why getting armor pen items later in the game negates the effectiveness of armor pen runes. Flat and % penetration work well together and compound their effectiveness the more you stack until you reach true damage.
Edit: Looks like Mungo iterated a couple of my points already. If nobody's done more testing by tomorrow evening I'll probably test some jungle clears with each rune setup.
Also @Mungo: Sometimes an extra auto can make a difference, especially on the raptor camp. It usually matters more for champions with AoE but those extra autos can multiply based on the number of monsters you have to hit an extra time and cause you to clear slower and take more damage.
Might not be an issue for Rengar, but I tested a lot of different setups for Nocturne before I found one that gives the cleanest clear and it saved me like 150 hp.
One thing you could try is doing a normal clear (with a leash maybe) in a custom with each rune setup and see how much damage you take and when you finish your clear. You could also test how long it takes to kill a given champion with each setup while spamming abilities as well as autos to simulate a gank or 1v1 situation.
If you're better with league math than me, show exactly how much value you get out of the armor pen at different stages of the game against different targets using autoattacks and abilities.
Also I don't see why getting armor pen items later in the game negates the effectiveness of armor pen runes. Flat and % penetration work well together and compound their effectiveness the more you stack until you reach true damage.
Edit: Looks like Mungo iterated a couple of my points already. If nobody's done more testing by tomorrow evening I'll probably test some jungle clears with each rune setup.
Also @Mungo: Sometimes an extra auto can make a difference, especially on the raptor camp. It usually matters more for champions with AoE but those extra autos can multiply based on the number of monsters you have to hit an extra time and cause you to clear slower and take more damage.
Might not be an issue for Rengar, but I tested a lot of different setups for Nocturne before I found one that gives the cleanest clear and it saved me like 150 hp.
Thanks to Nyoike for the sig!
iambatman wrote:
While on the subject on gaming tips. I also got into lee sin and i really really enjoy the champ and im thinking of taking him as my "other main". So if you want you can also throw some general tips on playing lee sin too :D
I never recommend people picking up champs like lee sin because he requires a lot of attention to the champion itself that leaves less attention to focusing on your role while in game.
Don't let me stop you though, if you enjoy playing the champ / think the champ looks cool go ahead and play him.
To get started you really should watch some lee sin videos to understand what kind of a champion he is. Lee has a huge learning curve and his skill floor is really high compared to most other champions.
Learn the generic tricks to lee (Ward hopping, insec, kick flash, QRQ, QsmiteQ), and then start working on gameplay.
for ward hopping I recommend using smartcast with items and placing sightstone on 4 so its really to QQ4WR to insec.
generic lee build is stalkers + warrior, mobi boots / tabi / merc, sightstone,
then other generic tanky items / bruiser items.
I like to go cleaver when ahead. others enjoy tiamat. Aegis is good against double AP or just heavy magic damage threat.
21/9/0 masteries (should be similar to rengar)
runes:
ad / arpen marks
armor seals
mr / CD / mr/lvl / cdr/lvl glyphs
AD quints
So, I did the maths for Rengar's Q and AA damage considering two setups, one with AD marks (set 1), the other with ArPen marks (set 2).
Both have 21 points in offense, considering here Double-Edged Sword
, the AD masteries,
Devastating Strikes
and
Havoc
.
Both have AD Quints and defensive stats in glyphs and seals.
First, level one: Rank 1 Q.
On
gromp
: 15 armour.
- AA: set 1 wins by 0.5 damage.
- Q: set 2 wins by 2.6 damage.
On
krug
: 12 armour (both of them).
- AA: set 1 wins by 0.3 damage.
- Q: set 2 wins by 2.97=~3 damage.
So what is clear, is that set 1 wins by a very small margin on AA damage, and loses on Q damage by a respectable margin.
Something to keep in mind is that ArPen is never wasted: you can reduce your foe's armor below 0.
The damage reduction formula being 100/(100+resistance-flatpen-(resistance*%pen)), and then you multiply this by the base damage. If you have more penetration than your opponent has resistance, this number can be superior to 1 and thus multiply your damage.
Now, let's say you gank at level 3, on a level 3 champion with 9 armour seal that I'll arbitrary set at 38 armour (19 base + 9 + 3.3 per level), Rank 1 Q, non empowered.
- AA: set 1 wins by 0.98=~1 damage.
- Q: set 2 wins by 1.16 damage.
Then, when it comes to lategame scaling, from my maths experience, AD will be better then ArPen on high armour targets, ArPen on low armour targets. And in midgame, ArPen is usually better. I haven't done the maths for Rengar in mid and late game though, but I can if someone wants to know.
Both have 21 points in offense, considering here
Double-Edged Sword
, the AD masteries,
Devastating Strikes
and
Havoc
.Both have AD Quints and defensive stats in glyphs and seals.
First, level one: Rank 1 Q.
On
gromp
: 15 armour.- AA: set 1 wins by 0.5 damage.
- Q: set 2 wins by 2.6 damage.
On
krug
: 12 armour (both of them).- AA: set 1 wins by 0.3 damage.
- Q: set 2 wins by 2.97=~3 damage.
So what is clear, is that set 1 wins by a very small margin on AA damage, and loses on Q damage by a respectable margin.
Something to keep in mind is that ArPen is never wasted: you can reduce your foe's armor below 0.
The damage reduction formula being 100/(100+resistance-flatpen-(resistance*%pen)), and then you multiply this by the base damage. If you have more penetration than your opponent has resistance, this number can be superior to 1 and thus multiply your damage.
Now, let's say you gank at level 3, on a level 3 champion with 9 armour seal that I'll arbitrary set at 38 armour (19 base + 9 + 3.3 per level), Rank 1 Q, non empowered.
- AA: set 1 wins by 0.98=~1 damage.
- Q: set 2 wins by 1.16 damage.
Then, when it comes to lategame scaling, from my maths experience, AD will be better then ArPen on high armour targets, ArPen on low armour targets. And in midgame, ArPen is usually better. I haven't done the maths for
Rengar in mid and late game though, but I can if someone wants to know.
every good rengar main (akaadian/chaosrain/pridestalker/dekar/ryan choi/dandy/reignover) runs armor pen because it simply helps you kill squishies easier. you don't need ad/attackspeed runes for earlygame at all. run 17 armor pen and 10% cdr with armor seals and empower Q every time you 5 stack. you clear at passable hp with purple smite and ample hp pots, especially if you double jungle. running ad on rengar is a noobtrap for jungle. i used to do it all the time and it isnt awful... but armor pen is just better.
if you're cheesing as rengar top with ign/exh im pretty sure u run some ad though
if you're cheesing as rengar top with ign/exh im pretty sure u run some ad though
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the tips so far have been very helpful.