Mooninites' Ranked 3v3 Tier List and Discussion

[quote=Mooninites][quote=FatelBlade]How do you feel about having an amazing shotcaller on the team? Do they serve a greater purpose than on Summoner's Rift because of the importance of team play? Would you also rank the best shotcallers you know?[/quote] I don't know, but I think we could get Masters if our team had one [quote=Taco Limeyjr] yea moon is right about zilean jungle [/quote] You don't have to tell me I'm right, I already know[/quote]

[quote=Mooninites]*updated 1/25/2016* Moved [[Lux]] to middle of Tier 2, previously unranked - Really strong pick off potential and long range. She was one of the champions that benefited the most from [[Frost Queen's Claim]] becoming a top tier item. Her AoE shield is a particular pain and she's also a pretty decent pick into some of the meta picks like [[anivia]], [[Brand]], and [[ahri]]. Still vulnerable though Moved [[Vel'koz]] to low of Tier 3, previously unranked - Has ridiculous damage, and some nice range. Only issue is he is easily interrupted and struggles against champions with high mobility and/or long range burst. To pick him you need a good match-up bot lane and the rest of your team to bring a lot of CC and utility, so he's pretty much only viable if you run a jungler + bruiser comp. No viable ADC brings the utility neede[/quote]

[quote=Ninja Trigger]What are your thoughts on [[amumu]] jungle, I played a game as him a few days ago and he wasn't awful. Also if you ever need help play testing things I'm down to play some 3v3[/quote]

[quote=Mooninites]I think he's okay. Definitely viable, but not the strongest pick. If you like [[Amumu]] and you're good at him he can work, but I think there's a lot better picks out there. He does a deceptively high amount of damage but prone to early invades. I'm not good enough at [[amumu]] or jungling to try it out but I could look into it Sounds good man, I have you added I'm pretty sure, I'll hit you up[/quote]

[quote=Mooninites]*updated 1/29/2016* Moved [[Lucian]] to Tier 1 up from Tier 2 - He's way too strong right now, new masteries really huge for him and his fast push was undervalued. Might be stronger than [[Kalista]] but really difficult to tell Move [[Vayne]] down in Tier 2 - [[Blade of the Ruined King]] nerf hurt her really hard at pre-season, pretty much forces her to go [[Sanguine Blade]] now. She doesn't get as much from Thunderlord's as other ADC's and really defeats the purpose of ADC comps which is to fast push and take huge objectives. She's in a weird spot right now, but still a powerhouse late game Added [[Graves]] to Tier 1 in Jungling, previously unranked - Tons of damage, pretty beefy not much else to say.[/quote]

[quote=Mooninites]*Updated 2/4/2016* Moved [[Poppy]] to Poppy Tier, from God Tier in jungle - Words cannot describe how toxic this champion is and how utterly gamebreaking this champion has become on Twisted Treeline. She is more disgusting than [[Tahm Kench]] ever was and that says a hell of a lot. They took everything about the old [[poppy]] and made her infinitely better the only thing she lacks is the insane late game damage, but to be fair they made her early game so much stronger. What kept the old poppy in check on Twisted Treeline was that her [[Heroic Charge]] did not auto-correct for terrain like the new one does. If you notice yourself getting stunned into "terrain" that you otherwise would not have you can thank riot for that one. Old [[poppy]] was an inefficient jungler, item dependent, not a good duelist, and couldn't lane well. That made her very ineffective in any role despite her ability to land very easy [[Heroic Charge]] combos. The new [[poppy]] takes everything that made her underwhelming and makes her incredibly strong. Her early game damage is insane, she now has an even easier time landing [[Heroic Charge]] and her new [[Steadfast Presence]] is a very strong form of utility against a lot of meta champions and increases her lockdown potential significantly. Additionally she has arguably the strongest ultimate in the meta. Turret pressure is immensely important in Twisted Treeline and [[Keeper's Verdict]] can force the objective by instantly removing 1-3 enemy team members from a fight. This either requires the enemy team to fight at a disadvantage or immediately concede the turret. The ability to force and take objectives without counterplay is gamebreaking. So much of Twisted Treeline is predicated on taking towers and establishing map control, [[poppy]] does this more effectively than any other champion and in numerous ways. I've already touched a bit on her [[Heroic Charge]] but it cannot be understated enough how impactful this spell is. Because of the narrow quarters, poppy is guaranteed a stun in virtually all situations. Narrow lanes and a narrow jungle with a mechanic that will auto-correct for terrain basically means it's idiot proof, anyone regardless of skill can land it, obviously more skilled players will find ways to utilize it more effectively. This is especially problematic during the laning phase; she now requires all players to play far enough back to retreat to their tower or burn a flash. If flash is down she requires players to play under their tower. As I said earlier, Twisted Treeline is heavily predicated based on the advantages you can take on the map, this often means pressuring the enemy laner heavily so you can help your jungler roam or skirmish in the jungle. Because the threat of a [[poppy]] gank is so immense you are forced to play in a defensive position and have the wave constantly pushing into you which relinquishes your junglers ability to apply pressure. Additionally, [[poppy]] has multiple ways to completely remove enemies from a team fight; her ultimate can remove 1-3 enemies from a fight and because her stun will be guaranteed in most scenarios she is able to completely lock down another target and prevent them from dashing away with W. This essentially guarantees a massive advantage for [[poppy]]'s team at all times. Even if threatened she can disengage with [[Steadfast Presence]] and [[Keeper's Verdict]]. Finally, it's worth mentioning how inherently tanky she gets because of her passive [[Iron Ambassador]] and [[Steadfast Presence]]. A 15% maximum HP for something as trivial as walking over her buckler, is massive. Add in the fact that she gets 12% bonus armor and MR (24% if under 40% HP), she basically becomes unkillable in 3v3. She simply requires too many resources to be poured into her on top of the inherent advantages she gives to her team because of her kit. This champion is literally cancer and she is killing the competitive scene in Twisted Treeline. The obvious solution is to ban her at all times, it is absolutely mandatory, but given that Twisted Treeline does not have a draft pick, you'll probably see her a lot in solo queue. I honestly don't think there is a way to rectify her kit on this map without completely gutting it. Her high base damage and inherent tankiness can obviously be adjusted, but simply the mechanics of her kit will always make her viable. A guaranteed stun and the ability to immediately pressure towers is far too powerful on Twisted Treeline which is why I think she might actually have to be permanently disabled on the mode for there to actually be competitive balance[/quote]

[quote=Mooninites]Haven't played 3v3 recently enough which is why the tier list isn't updated. She's a good skirmisher and has fast clear. But due to the limited availability of camps her fast clear isn't utilized as well as it is on Summoner's rift (5v5). She scales amazingly into late, a lot of free stats and good aoe and sustained damage. Her early game is pretty good too, she doesn't lose many skirmishes to enemy junglers with exception of someone like [[Xin Zhao]]. But she does have some issues in that she really can't apply any pressure early except on the enemy jungler, her ganks are awful, and she's pretty much just a walking pile of stats which isn't really what you want out of your jungler. Pros: 1. Good, fast clear 2. Good dueling/skirmishing and early pressure on the jungler 3. Tons of free stats and scales well into late game Cons: 1. Zero gank pressure 2. Doesn't fit in any team comps really She's not bad, but she just doesn't do anything exceptionally well that another jungle pick couldn't do. Like why not pick [[xin zhao]] or [[trundle]] and do the exact same thing as her? I just feel like she needs more of a jungle-centric comp and she isn't strong enough to demand one. For example my team would sometimes run a comp like [[Trundle]] top, [[udyr]] jungle, and either [[karma]] or [[lulu]] bot lane. The entire comp pretty much centered around devourer udyr chasing people down while being buffed by [[lulu]]/[[karma]] and using pillar to block enemies in. She would work in that style comp, I just don't think she's better than [[xin zhao]], [[olaf]], [[trundle]], [[udyr]] in those style comps. And if you want to pick her for early pressure on enemy jungler why not pick [[kha'zix]]?[/quote]

[quote=RottedApples]i always thought jarvan was generally a pretty strong jungler in 3's in most circumstances. I'm assuming xin on the list is building something other than devourer right? I can't seem to wrap my head around how anyone would be able to build devourer in 3's and actually get the stacks necessary for it to be sated in any reasonable amount of time. I also don't understand why tear champions are on the list, my limited understanding of twisted treeline made me think that it is a very early/mid-game focused map and therefore something that is more mid/late game such as a tear champion was always incredibly risky. I understand anivia because she is kinda stupid strong in a map with so little open space and does damage even with only tear.[/quote]

[quote=Mooninites]Devourer is viable on 3s, depends on how you want to play it though. Xin Zhao has a number of options including Devourer, Warrior, and Cinderhulk. Out of those options I think Cinderhulk is the worst and Warrior is the most consistent choice. However you can build a comp around devourer and it generally requires strong early lanes an a decently strong early game jungler. Xin zhao fits that criteria and running karma/lulu and something like trundle top would absolutely fit that criteria. I think devourer build paths rely a lot more on your comp than anything else, but its defintiely viable. Depends entirely on the champion. Starting [[Tear of the goddess]] on some champions is viable. [[Ezreal]], [[Cassiopeia]], [[ryze]] come to mind. Might be an okay start for [[Jayce]]. I can get a fully stacked tear in about 12 minutes with [[ryze]] which is incredibly fast. The fact that some champions have tear of the goddess in their build path does not make or break their viability. [[Ezreal]] and [[Jayce]] are pretty good situational picks and tear really doesn't hurt them. [[Ezreal]] in particular is really good against melee heavy comps that are easily kiteable. I think the real question is, does [[tear of the goddess]] stop them from fulfilling the role you want them to? And I think the answer is no. Out of the champions that build [[Tear of the Goddess]] on 3v3 these come to mind: [[Ryze]], [[Jayce]], [[Ezreal]], [[Anivia]], [[Zilean]], [[Cassiopeia]]. you can even make a case that [[Zilean]], [[Cassiopeia]], and [[Anivia]] can forgo the Tear for double dorans into RoA or Dorans/Spellthief's into FQC. Which leaves just [[Jayce]], [[Ezreal]] and [[Ryze]] that require tear. [[Ryze]] is really weak now because of the nerfs, but even before, building tear with him was never an issue. You still played around his mid-late game as opposed to his early game. Ezreal and Jayce are mid game champions that are niche picks. Ezreal is really good at kiting and sieging. While Jayce is really strong at fast pushing towers, sieging, and poking overly squishy comps. Tear does delay their powerspike a bit, but you're playing around the mid game, that 15-25 minute mark, as opposed to the initial 1-12 minutes of the game which you're gimped because of tear. So looking at all champions that want to build tear, does it really inhibit them? [[Cassiopeia]] - absolutely inhibits her early game pressure, but sets her up for late game. I think you can make the case that [[Doran's ring]]x2 into [[Rod of Ages]] is a much better set up, given her late game is pretty much the best bar-none of all AP bots that are viable. But the fact that tear isn't ideal might also be the product of [[Cassiopeia]] being absolutely awful right now thanks to the rework. [[Zilean]] - you basically just want to waveclear until you hit the 15-20 minute critical mass that is zilean in which it becomes impossible to fight against him. Tear doesn't inhibit him from sitting there and wave clearing minions. I personal prefer Dorans/Spellthief's into FQC and buying the Tear later or not at all (in favor of athene's or morello's or RoA). But Tear doesn't inhibit him from waveclearing early on. [[Ryze]] - a lot like zilean, you're playing for the late game in which ryze because disgusting. Ryze isn't viable anymore because of the nerfs, not because of tear start. [[Anivia]] - a lot like [[zilean]], but she has naturally very high base damage stats on her Q and E and also you pretty much play [[Anivia]] extremely passively until level 6 when you get your ultimate. You need a big mana pool on anivia because of her ultimate and because she's really good at controlling the map. Tear doesn't really prevent you from farming the early game. [[Jayce]] - tear start does probably gimp him, but I think it's still okay. You can just farm until you have [[manamune]] before pushing your advantage. I think you play [[jayce]] more like a ADC/Support or ADC/jungle comp because of his sieging potential and fast push. At least that's how I see him played. Tear does slow this down early on compared to someone like [[Lucian]] or [[Caitlyn]] but it's not so bad that it makes him unviable. [[Ezreal]] - niche pick, tear into [[manamune]]/[[iceborn gauntlet]]. Your powerspike is the Manamune/IBG combo and that's what you're playing around so I don't think it hurts him that bad. I don't really think he has a lot of pressure early anyway so tear doesn't really effect him. I guess the question is what other champions would build tear? And additionally, of the champions that build tear that I listed, are any of them inhibited from playing the way you would if you chose a route other than tear? Cassiopeia is the only one that comes to mind.[/quote]

[quote=Mooninites]*Updated 2/27/2016* Removed God Tier from top lane bruiser category. Moved [[Darius]] and [[Renekton]] to top of Tier 1 - These champions are still the best at their role, but I don't think they fulfill god tier status anymore mainly because they don't guarantee victory. They're still obnoxious because they are the best at their role and require you to play around them, but not gamebreaking. [[Pantheon]] moved up to Tier 2, from Tier 3 - New Duskblade item makes him a lot better and makes his snowball more ridiculous than before. [[Ryze]] moved to bottom of Tier 3, from mid Tier 2. - latest rounds of nerfs killed him. He was a champion that required a lot of gold and time to scale which already made him tough to work in 3v3, but the latest rounds of nerfs probably put him in the grave. I'll have to see. [[Zilean]] moved up to mid Tier 2, from mid Tier 3 - At first I thought [[Zilean]] was a niche pick or a pocket pick of mine, turns out I was correct in finding out that he is hidden OP or at the very least super strong. He hits a critical mass point at around 15-20 minute which makes him impossible to deal with and team fight against. He enables teammates to go absolutely nuts without repercussion and his double bomb utility is very strong in the closed quarters of the 3v3 map. I personally think he's tier 1, but that might be a little ambitious. [[Graves]] moved down to top of Tier 2, from top of Tier 1 - Got hit with some nerfs, still think he's a good pick, just not borderline God Tier Moved [[Elise]] to top of Tier 1, from top of Tier 2 - Runic Echoes was a huge plus for her. She incredibly strong right now and can gimp anyone if she gets ahead at all. She doesn't have any definitively bad match-ups and has one of the best early games out there. She's not OP enough to be put in God Tier or warrant bans, but she is universally the best jungler available, aside from [[poppy]] and [[tahm kench]] which should always be banned. Moved [[Gragas]] up to Tier 1, from Tier 2. - It's been shown that [[Gragas]] can be incredibly strong with Runic Echoes. He was already good despite the nerfs to his kit and cinderhulk falling out of favor, so the Runic Echoes buff is enough to bump him from the top of Tier 2 into Tier 1 Moved [[Lulu]] down to mid Tier 2 in Supports, from bottom of Tier 1 - Slight [[Frost Queen's Claim]] nerfs hurt her a bit. It's still fine, but she has more potential played in the AP bot role. Moved [[Shen]] down to Tier 3 in Supports, from mid Tier 2. - The rework hurt his ability to support IMO. He does more damage, but isn't as consistent. I think he's a fine pick, but I don't think he's as good in the support role, but maybe I just haven't seen any good [[Shen]]s Note: [[Poppy]] and [[Tahm Kench]] did get nerfs, but I'm not moving them because I don't know if they should go down. My initial reaction is that they won't change because their utility in their kit is so disgustingly broken on 3v3 map that even additional substantial nerfs would not enough to lower them past Tier 1. They just fulfill roles that no other champion can and they do it exceptionally well.[/quote]