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[quote=Vapora Dark]Not as good as my patented ADC [[karma]]. [img=http://i.imgur.com/0K0MQlx.png][/quote]

[quote=Sirhappee]Love the fact that you were [[Karma]] ADC with [[Sivir]] support in that first game. Way to confuse the enemy team.[/quote]

[quote=Vapora Dark]The first time was a genuine accident, we forgot to swap. The second time was me realizing ADC Karma isn't as bad as it sounds. :')[/quote]

[quote=Sirhappee]Oddly enough, most "real" ADCs actually have really bad base AD scaling, while APCs' is often better. So if you can get past the rough early game when your abilities are terrible, APCs are perfectly decent ADCs late. I would argue that [[Ahri]] is quite possibly a better ADC than [[Kalista]] right now (though maybe that just shows how bad [[Kalista]] is), though it really comes down to whether you need pick/self-peel + mobility or initiation more. She might be able to compete with [[Urgot]] and [[Corki]] as well. Likewise, [[Karma]] with her cc and shield might do well too once all of your damage comes from autos anyway.[/quote]

[quote=Vynertje]That's just bullshit lol[/quote]

[quote=Vapora Dark]Nah 99% of ADC's have better base stats than [[karma]] and probably [[ahri]] too. Though [[karma]] felt surprisingly decent besides having below average range.[/quote]

[quote=TheBlueReaper]ADC [[Nidalee]] is where it's at.[/quote]

[quote=Sirhappee]I might be exaggerating a bit, but not that much actually, I did check the numbers. (Note that I was only referring to late game, though I didn't clarify this well; in early/mid game, weird ADCs are awful.) Let's take [[Ahri]], [[Caitlyn]] and [[Ashe]] as an example, at level 18: [[Ahri]]: Base AD - 104 Base AS - 0.668 Natural AS growth - 34% or 0.34 * 0.668 = 0.227 [[Caitlyn]]: Base AD - 91 Base AS - 0.568 Natural AS growth - 68% or 0.68 * 0.568 = 0.386, plus 0.1 from her passive [[Ashe]]: Base AD - 95 Base AS - 0.658 Natural AS growth - 56.6% or 0.566 * 0.658 = 0.372 To make the comparison fair, they need to have the same items. I don't normally play ADC so I don't know much about itemization, but I'll go with something generic: [[Berserker's Greaves]] + [[Runaan's Hurricane]] + [[Infinity Edge]] + [[The Bloodthirster]] + [[Lord Dominik's Regards]] + [[Maw of Malmortius]] Total item stats: AD: 0 + 0 + 70 + 75 + 50 + 55 = 250 AS: 0.35 + 0.40 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 = 0.75 (i.e. 75% of base AS) Crit: 0 + 0.30 + 0.20 + 0 + 0 + 0 = 0.50 (i.e. 50%) at 250% damage, for a DPS factor of 1.75 (except for [[Ashe]], who gets 1.85 from her passive) That makes the total stats: [[Ahri]] - AD: 354 AS: 1.396 which gives an aa dps of 494 * 1.75 = 865 [[Caitlyn]] - AD: 341 AS: 1.437 which gives an aa dps of 490 * 1.75 = 858 [[Ashe]] - AD: 345 AS: 1.396 which gives an aa dps of 482 without Q or passive, 773 with Q, and 1430 with both. Obviously I've ignored lots of other factors ([[Fervor of Battle]], etc.) but I think this simple analysis at least shows that [[Ahri]] and [[Caitlyn]]'s late games are in the same ballpark (though see posts below). [[Ashe]] hurts.[/quote]

[quote=Vapora Dark][[caitlyn]]'s base stats are intentionally low to compensate for [[headshot]] and her super high range though, not the greatest example to compare [[ahri]] to. Even ignoring [[caitlyn]]'s superior range, [[headshot]] alone means [[caitlyn]] does more DPS through items than [[ahri]] does, especially when taking spells into consideration.[/quote]

[quote=Sirhappee]I'm too lazy to go crunch the numbers for [[Caitlyn]]'s headshot. It would definitely help her, but I'm not sure the effect would be all that dramatic in a long fight. Instead I just did the whole computation for [[Ashe]] and yeah, if she attacks a slowed target with her Q active, she deals a lot more damage. I have to say, I never appreciated quite how powerful her passive is. EDIT: Alright, I won't be lazy. A headshot on every 6th shot would give an extra 125% AD damage per 6 shots but can't crit. That comes out to an extra DPS of 102. So if we include headshots, [[Caitlyn]] does come out on top (which is a relief tbh, I would be worried if she didn't...) but the difference isn't all that large. You can argue about their abilities' and ranges' relative utilities I suppose, but even so, I don't think the difference would be overwhelming. So yes, [[Caitlyn]] has better DPS, but the difference between late game [[Ashe]] and [[Caitlyn]] is much larger than the difference between [[Caitlyn]] and [[Ahri]].[/quote]