"Blizzard spoke thus; Thou shalt not BM. And the players replied Nay, I shall Play my hand with Lethal already on the board. And so Blizzard sent unto them this Brawl of Yogg, As a lesson for their sins of Pride and Greed, for he is the Prophet of Madness and RNG. On that day, the tavern descended into an era of chaos and darkness, until the weekend passed and everyone forgot all about it. Amen. Book of SMOrc, Verse 20, Chapter 4." - Feam T
CosmoVibe
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<Member>
@Searz:
And MY argument is that the threshold for which the benefits from getting MrP outweigh the benefits from not getting it is in mid-game, not late game.
Assuming you already have some AP built, such as masteries, runes, or Doran's Rings. The effectiveness of your core skills are usually stronger with MrP by mid-game, as evidenced in my calculations, and since it scales better and better there is no reason to sell it or get it later either.
And MY argument is that the threshold for which the benefits from getting MrP outweigh the benefits from not getting it is in mid-game, not late game.
Assuming you already have some AP built, such as masteries, runes, or Doran's Rings. The effectiveness of your core skills are usually stronger with MrP by mid-game, as evidenced in my calculations, and since it scales better and better there is no reason to sell it or get it later either.
As I've said previously on this subject:
20/.4=50
Void staff will not be as effective as HG (or sorc. shoes or abyssal scepter) until said enemy(s) has 50 MR
40/.4=100
Void staff won't be as effective as HG (or abyssal scepter) + Sorc. Shoes until said enemy(s) has 100 MR
60/.4=150
Since subtracting 20 works the same as penetrating through 20 of it, I've just added abyssal scepter in.
Once you start getting flat pen...you might as well keep building it since Void Staff becomes less and less useful as you build more flat pen...
20/.4=50
Void staff will not be as effective as HG (or sorc. shoes or abyssal scepter) until said enemy(s) has 50 MR
40/.4=100
Void staff won't be as effective as HG (or abyssal scepter) + Sorc. Shoes until said enemy(s) has 100 MR
60/.4=150
Since subtracting 20 works the same as penetrating through 20 of it, I've just added abyssal scepter in.
Once you start getting flat pen...you might as well keep building it since Void Staff becomes less and less useful as you build more flat pen...
The_Nameless_Bard wrote:
As I've said previously on this subject:
20/.4=50
Void staff will not be as effective as HG (or sorc. shoes or abyssal scepter) until said enemy(s) has 50 MR
40/.4=100
Void staff won't be as effective as HG (or abyssal scepter) + Sorc. Shoes until said enemy(s) has 100 MR
60/.4=150
Since subtracting 20 works the same as penetrating through 20 of it, I've just added abyssal scepter in.
Once you start getting flat pen...you might as well keep building it since Void Staff becomes less and less useful as you build more flat pen...
But by the point you get 40 pen from boots+guise it's pretty easy to tell if they're going to be building MR against you at which point you sell the guise for a Void staff and go straight AP rather than have to rely on a weak late game item for more MPen.
CosmoVibe
<Member>
<Member>
This is the great thing about strategy. Even though Void Staff looks stronger on paper, the fact remains that it takes somewhat extreme amounts of magic resist on the enemy team to make Void Staff more viable than Haunting Guise.
Consider the costs that go into Void Staff. 70 AP for 2.3k means that the 40% magic penetration is worth 900 gold.
900/20 = 45 AP. But this is assuming that you already have lots of penetration from runes, masteries, and items, making it difficult to take full advantage of this expensive benefit. Haunting Guise's flat penetration is strong enough to force your enemies into getting magic resistance, and by the time they really start stacking, you'd already be able to counter by simply replacing Haunting Guise with Void Staff.
So basically, by getting Haunting Guise mid-game, you win either way. Theoretically speaking.
Consider the costs that go into Void Staff. 70 AP for 2.3k means that the 40% magic penetration is worth 900 gold.
900/20 = 45 AP. But this is assuming that you already have lots of penetration from runes, masteries, and items, making it difficult to take full advantage of this expensive benefit. Haunting Guise's flat penetration is strong enough to force your enemies into getting magic resistance, and by the time they really start stacking, you'd already be able to counter by simply replacing Haunting Guise with Void Staff.
So basically, by getting Haunting Guise mid-game, you win either way. Theoretically speaking.
The issue is if you get the abyssal scepter instead of void staff you actually get more of a benefit. More AP, magic resist and a benefit to all the casters...for not significantly more? You might as well keep the HG and grab Abyssal Scepter instead of Void Staff at that point.
The_Nameless_Bard wrote:
The issue is if you get the abyssal scepter instead of void staff you actually get more of a benefit. More AP, magic resist and a benefit to all the casters...for not significantly more? You might as well keep the HG and grab Abyssal Scepter instead of Void Staff at that point.
But the HG falls off as a late game item. You'd be sacrificing MPen in order to achieve your "final" build.
CosmoVibe
<Member>
<Member>
Once again, not QUITE right. You really have to consider the different cases and strategies in order to determine whether an item is worth its cost.
Abyssal Scepter reduces MR by 20, sure, but first you have to realize that you have to be within range of the enemy champions. If you're a caster who stays in the back of teamfights, that's not an efficient buy. On top of that, let's take another look.
Abyssal gives 70 AP. Deathcap gives 155 AP, but with the bonus it's a minimum of 200 AP.
Because Abyssal costs less, let us assume that the rest of the costs gone into Deathcap goes into flat AP.
So Abyssal: 120, Deathcap, 200.
100/(100+MR-20)*(x+120r) > 100/(100+MR)*(x+200r)
(100+MR)/(100+MR-20) > (x+200r)/(x+120r)
Let's take Annie's Q as an example. (250 base with .75 ratio)
(100+MR)/(100+MR-20) > 400/340 = 1.176
MR < 33
This is the worst-case scenario for Deathcap. Chances are you have much more AP, which makes this cap much lower. On top of that, any champion that builds any kind of magic resistance will automatically make this item inefficient.
Abyssal should only be bought situationally on a ranged caster in the following cases: you need the magic resistance, and NO ONE on the enemy team is building any magic resistance whatsoever.
Otherwise, leave this item for the tanky casters and tanks, as the aura is extremely cost efficient.
But the HG falls off as a late game item. You'd be sacrificing MPen in order to achieve your "final" build.
Sigh, no it doesn't. Read my thread again.
Not only does it only stop being efficient only for values of MR well above 100, but it increases the multiplicative damage increase from your AP items, essentially increasing your effective AP ratios.
Abyssal Scepter reduces MR by 20, sure, but first you have to realize that you have to be within range of the enemy champions. If you're a caster who stays in the back of teamfights, that's not an efficient buy. On top of that, let's take another look.
Abyssal gives 70 AP. Deathcap gives 155 AP, but with the bonus it's a minimum of 200 AP.
Because Abyssal costs less, let us assume that the rest of the costs gone into Deathcap goes into flat AP.
So Abyssal: 120, Deathcap, 200.
100/(100+MR-20)*(x+120r) > 100/(100+MR)*(x+200r)
(100+MR)/(100+MR-20) > (x+200r)/(x+120r)
Let's take Annie's Q as an example. (250 base with .75 ratio)
(100+MR)/(100+MR-20) > 400/340 = 1.176
MR < 33
This is the worst-case scenario for Deathcap. Chances are you have much more AP, which makes this cap much lower. On top of that, any champion that builds any kind of magic resistance will automatically make this item inefficient.
Abyssal should only be bought situationally on a ranged caster in the following cases: you need the magic resistance, and NO ONE on the enemy team is building any magic resistance whatsoever.
Otherwise, leave this item for the tanky casters and tanks, as the aura is extremely cost efficient.
B-Wong wrote:
But the HG falls off as a late game item. You'd be sacrificing MPen in order to achieve your "final" build.
Sigh, no it doesn't. Read my thread again.
Not only does it only stop being efficient only for values of MR well above 100, but it increases the multiplicative damage increase from your AP items, essentially increasing your effective AP ratios.
Putting in a Void Staff at the end is one thing, but replacing HG halfway through? that's just stupid. they're unlikely to have over 150 MR mid game, so waiting to replace the HG until late game makes much more sense.
There are some champs where HG should be core either way, since it is a health/AP/MRpen item. You're not going to replace it with void staff on Maokai, are you? Cho'gath?
There are some champs where HG should be core either way, since it is a health/AP/MRpen item. You're not going to replace it with void staff on Maokai, are you? Cho'gath?
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Still;
The whole item is stupid. MrP is and will always be a lategame stat and having that on an early/midgame item isn't very smart, now is it?
The main reason for adding the graphs is to show that MrP gets more effective when you level skills up because the base damage is increased. MrP is a lategame stat because of that.