Ya1232
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<Member>
Those other posts that you linked, didnt really have much information. This would be the main thread to go off of since its written so much better.
tho math makes my head hurt and I cry.
Ya no math *grunt*
OT: The only problem I have is that MPen is useless, unless they are building res to it. Also, as you said, its really only a mid game item. From just personal stance I like to be able to use items that build up over time, or are really strong most of the game. An item that you buy mid game, then does nothing for you is iffy.
But, for certain champs such as Annie, I LOVE THIS ITEM. You are able to build better items faster and replace HG fairly quickly.
tho math makes my head hurt and I cry.
Ya no math *grunt*
OT: The only problem I have is that MPen is useless, unless they are building res to it. Also, as you said, its really only a mid game item. From just personal stance I like to be able to use items that build up over time, or are really strong most of the game. An item that you buy mid game, then does nothing for you is iffy.
But, for certain champs such as Annie, I LOVE THIS ITEM. You are able to build better items faster and replace HG fairly quickly.
Trophycase
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<Editor>
It generally is a great midgame item. As soon as you see your enemies picking up some magic resist it is a good idea to get one. However, in combination with sorc shoes, 10 of the magic pen will go to waste if they have not built past 30 MR
edit: if my understanding of magic pen is correct
edit: if my understanding of magic pen is correct
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Lugignaf wrote:
10 Magic pen isn't very much and most casters have that much built in from runes.
Sorc shoes will just put you right about on the 30 MagPen mark.
The Main use that Haunting Guise has it do get rid of the newer characters with 50+ base resist's MR.
But It's a decent item to get if you lane against someone like a Mordekaiser, or a Galio.
People that will often rush magic resistance.
Also, Merc Treads(A very common build) are pretty much nullified by Mpen quints/reds+Sorc Shoes+Haunting Guise.
Tri lane for life.
The whole item is stupid. MrP is and will always be a lategame stat and having that on an early/midgame item isn't very smart, now is it?
Here are some proper comparisons:
(all functions include AP quints, MrP marks and the Archaic Knowledge mastery)
WITH Sorcerer's Shoes:
I think you'd benefit a lot from know how to graph, Jun. There are instructions in my graphing thread. (link in sig)
Here are some proper comparisons:
(all functions include AP quints, MrP marks and the Archaic Knowledge mastery)
WITH Sorcerer's Shoes:
I think you'd benefit a lot from know how to graph, Jun. There are instructions in my graphing thread. (link in sig)
"Blizzard spoke thus; Thou shalt not BM. And the players replied Nay, I shall Play my hand with Lethal already on the board. And so Blizzard sent unto them this Brawl of Yogg, As a lesson for their sins of Pride and Greed, for he is the Prophet of Madness and RNG. On that day, the tavern descended into an era of chaos and darkness, until the weekend passed and everyone forgot all about it. Amen. Book of SMOrc, Verse 20, Chapter 4." - Feam T
CosmoVibe
<Member>
<Member>
@Searz:
Aha, your graphs look convincing and all, but you forget to factor in two things.
Firstly, your graphs are assuming a maximum of 64 AP, and the threshold for each damage border is 100 MR and 120 MR respectively. In a real game, what is more likely, you getting more than 64 AP first, or your opponents getting more than 100 MR first?
Even if your opponents have 120 MR early on, that would require the following: Merc Treads, Negatron Cloak, plus level 18 if they have scaling MR. Otherwise, they would've invested a LOT in MR and your physical carry will rip them apart. Mission accomplished?
Another thing you forgot to factor in is the fact that because you are still doing more damage as long as the enemies have less than 100 MR WHILE YOU HAVE 64 AP (this is important), this could be a late game item. BUT let's assume that the whole team starts stacking major MR just to screw you over. Sell Haunting Guise, get Void Staff. You just effectively countered the enemy team and forced them to spend a lot of money on a strategy that you are now dominant in. Once again, mission accomplished.
There is more to theorycrafting than just math. You have to consider the strategy as well, or the numbers mean nothing.
Aha, your graphs look convincing and all, but you forget to factor in two things.
Firstly, your graphs are assuming a maximum of 64 AP, and the threshold for each damage border is 100 MR and 120 MR respectively. In a real game, what is more likely, you getting more than 64 AP first, or your opponents getting more than 100 MR first?
Even if your opponents have 120 MR early on, that would require the following: Merc Treads, Negatron Cloak, plus level 18 if they have scaling MR. Otherwise, they would've invested a LOT in MR and your physical carry will rip them apart. Mission accomplished?
Another thing you forgot to factor in is the fact that because you are still doing more damage as long as the enemies have less than 100 MR WHILE YOU HAVE 64 AP (this is important), this could be a late game item. BUT let's assume that the whole team starts stacking major MR just to screw you over. Sell Haunting Guise, get Void Staff. You just effectively countered the enemy team and forced them to spend a lot of money on a strategy that you are now dominant in. Once again, mission accomplished.
There is more to theorycrafting than just math. You have to consider the strategy as well, or the numbers mean nothing.
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You guys are not building enough Haunting Guise.
I'm looking at some of your mage builds, but quite frankly I don't think enough of you realize how great this mid-game item is. Let's do something about that.
For starters, I want to explain what it is I am trying to argue here. My point is that Haunting Guise is such a strong mid-game item that there are very few other options that are potentially stronger. Yes, I realize it doesn't build into a late game item. Neither do your Doran's items, potions, or wards. Why should you hold off on late game items and buy Haunting Guise instead? This is why.
I. Cost analysis
Whether or not an item is efficient to buy depends on how much you're paying versus how much you're getting. Let's set some standards for how much we believe each stat is worth.
Needlessly Large Rod: 1600 gold for 80 AP; 20 gold/AP
Giant's Belt: 430 HP for 1110 gold; 2.58 gold/HP
Haunting Guise costs 1485 gold, and provides 25 AP and 200 health.
(25*20)+(2.58*200) = 1016
1016-1485 = -469
Now at first it looks like you're down 469 gold. But remember that Haunting Guise gives +20 magic penetration. Now the question is, is this +20 magic penetration worth 469 gold?
With this 469 gold and the gold you used for health you can potentially get (469+2.58*200)/20 = 39 AP. Let's see which does more damage.
Most champions start with a base of 30 magic resist. Some champions (melee champions usually) have a scaling of 1.25 per level as well, and Mercury Treads might be a common core build for some others.
Let's split into cases: with and without MR scaling, with and without Merc Treads.
nothing: 30 MR; 0.769 reduced damage, 0.909 with penetration
Full scaling: 52.5 MR; 0.656 reduced damage, 0.755 with penetration
Merc: 55 MR; 0.645 reduced damage, 0.741 with penetration
Full scaling with Merc: 77.5 MR, 0.563 reduced damage, 0.635 with penetration
For each of these cases, spell damage is multiplicatively increased by the following formula:
(penetration damage ratio)/(reduced damage ratio)
So for each case we get:
0.909/0.769 = 1.182; 18.2% increase
0.755/0.656 = 1.151; 15.1% increase
0.741/0.645 = 1.149; 14.9% increase
0.635/0.563 = 1.128; 12.8% increase
How much damage should you be doing to make each case efficient?
Let x = true damage dealt by spell.
Let r = AP ratio of spell.
0.909x > 0.769(x+39r)
x > 214r
Similarly,
x > 258r
x > 263r
x > 306r
What does this mean? Let's call the number in front of r "c". It means that as long as the amount of damage you are currently dealing is c times your AP ratio, this item will help you deal effectively more damage than if you spent it all on AP.
For example, assuming you have an AP ratio of 1, that means that as long as the spell in question deals more than 306 damage already, this item will allow you to deal more effective damage. Let's look at some basic examples:
Anivia - lvl 4 Q: 150 base with .5 ratio. Efficient!
Annie - lvl 5 Q: 250 base with .75 ratio. Efficient!
Annie - lvl 5 W: 285 base with .8 ratio. Efficient!
I could keep going!
Cho'gath - lvl 5 Q, lvl 4 W, lvl 1 R are all efficient!
Heimerdinger - lvl 5 Q, lvl 3 W, lvl 3 E are all efficient!
LeBlanc - lvl 4 Q, W are both efficient!
I could just go on forever but you see my point.
These are just base damage numbers too. The more AP you actually build on your champion, the more buffer these ratios give you, and the more powerful this item becomes.
II. Synergy
But what if you grabbed Sorceror's Shoes? Well, basically the same scenario occurs, but it makes your spells even more efficient for higher amounts of magic resist your enemies build.
With both Haunting Guise and Sorceror's Shoes, you have +40 magic penetration, meaning that if your opponents build a Negatron Cloak, they would have at max 125.5 magic resist if combined with scaling MR and Merc Treads.
Plugging that into our equations, we get:
x = 180r
Wait, that's even better than the worst-case scenario with only Haunting Guise.
Hell, it's even better than the BEST-case scenario with only Haunting Guise.
And we're not even talking about magic penetration masteries and runes.
Know what this means?
Even if your enemies build a Negatron Cloak, Merc Treads, AND have scaling magic resist, getting Haunting Guise and Sorceror's Shoes instead of flat AP allows you to do MORE damage, AND have bonus health on top of that.
WHY WOULD YOU NOT GET THIS AWESOME AWESOME ITEM??
From now on, I expect to see a lot more of you grab Sorceror's Shoes and Haunting Guise before your precious Deathcap.
EDIT: Apparently some people have some misconceptions, so I have to explain in a little bit more detail.
III. Strategy
There is a rule about theorycrafting. You can apply as much math as you like, but if the strategy isn't practical, the numbers mean nothing. People are apparently scared to "invest" into Haunting Guise because they are not convinced of its strength. The same way you invest into Doran's items to gain an advantage early game, you get Haunting Guise to gain an advantage mid-game to carry yourself into late game.
Let's look at some facts here, and take Annie as an example.
(all functions include AP quints, MrP marks and the Archaic Knowledge mastery)
Disclaimer: I did not check the math on these graphs yet, so there may be some room for error.
We note the following: As long as you have this penetration and 64 AP, the enemy has less than 100 MR, this item is a dominant strategy because you gain more power for less gold, AND you get a health bonus.
But now people will be asking, "What if...?"
- What if my enemies build more than 100 MR?
Sell Haunting Guise and get Void Staff. You just royally screwed over the enemy team.
- What if my enemies built more than 100 MR really early on (before Haunting Guise or before the 64 AP)?
Well then they get ripped apart by your physical carry, don't they? That also means they spent all that money on MR, and nothing on damage or anything else. But either way, that penetration helps you, so you should get it anyways, or go straight for Void Staff in extreme cases. It's a strategy game, you have to pick your strategy yourself.
- What if I have more than 64 AP?
The more AP you have, the more efficient your item becomes. The higher your AP scales, the higher the MR efficiency cap is also raised. For example, (this is inaccurate, I'm just giving an example) if you have 200 AP, the item might stay efficient until the enemies get 150 MR instead of 100 MR.
- What if I get flat AP just in case I don't know how much magic resist they will build?
Well, that's exactly it. You WANT them to build magic resist. You WANT them to be so afraid of you that they have to do something about it. How do you do that? You pressure them by getting these magic penetration items, allowing you to not only do massive amounts of damage, but in the case that they do build MR, you can STILL counter them.
So as you can see, there's still no reason not to get it in a standard game.
Crossposted from the League of Legends forums