What happened to the role of the mage?

[quote=Mastarwe][quote=BucklesSupreme] [b]3.Life Steal > Spell Vamp[/b] Now I know that Spell Vamp is one way to help balance the common mages horrible health but it just doesn't work as well as Life Steal that the aforementioned bulky DPS and the AD Carry has. Spell Vamp is just Life Steal with abilities right? I should work just as well! Well because of the fact that the thing your using to do damage and gain life are abilities and most take while to use again and they aren't auto attacks as in automatically doing damage every second, this just isn't efficient way of gaining health on a character that has the health of a thin sheet of construction paper. There is also that there are 2 ITEMS that use spell vamp which are Will of the Ancients and Hextech Gunblade the latter which almost no mage ever uses so effectively we only have one item that gives mages an form of recovery by itself while AD characters have sooo many life steal item options. [/quote] 1.Even though I agree that there could be more SV items, they need to have their own little niche and not just be another WotA which, let's be honest, is somewhat of the BT for AP (rabadon's being IE). Find a niche and help riot out! [quote] I would love to see a mage that can capitalize off their auto attacks WITHOUT USING LICH BANE!! [/quote] 2. What about Orianna? Most of the other stuff has already been touched upon by Luther and Trojan.[/quote]

[quote=Icuonuez]Totally on-topic: It's been an extremely long time since I've seen an Orianna in-game. Is she in a bad place or something?[/quote]

[quote=ZioSerpe]The wholke mistake here is not knowing what a mage should do in a teamfight. Yeah, is extremly hard for a mage to kill a tanky DPS, that's why he shouldn't, Magre Role ina teamfight is to kill the enemy AD carry right away, then focus enemy mage and lastly damage all that's left as much as possible but staying alive. Stop wasting your rotation on tanky DPS and you're good That applies obviusly unless you're [[cassiopeia]], in that case just keep spamming your shit and pray for kills.[/quote]

[quote=ExamplePrime][quote=ZioSerpe] That applies obviusly unless you're [[cassiopeia]], in that case just keep spamming your shit and pray for kills. [/quote] Doing it wrong :P Although Mages are kinda useless against Tanky DPS teams[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]1; Health is the natural counter to burst type champions. Burst mages are not supposed to be able to burst down a tank. They are supposed to burst down squishy champions (Which they do excellently) However, Champions like Ryze, Karthus, Kogmaw (When built AP with some AS), Cass, etc, can use their abilities to down any target, because they have -sustained- DPS. Not burst. Sustained DPS is the only way to kill tanky targets, not burst. --------------------------------------------------------------- 2; Believe me, it's intentional that most mages don't have any escapes. ----------------------------------------------------------------- 3; Life steal and spell vamp are not as different as you think, they are essentially exactly the same thing. What you mean to say is that life steal and spell vamp are more functional when you have a sustained DPS type of champion rather than a bursty type of damage dealer. Watch what happens when Ryze and Karthus buy a WotA... It's very comparable to when an AD carry buys a BT. Your analysis of Life steal and Spell vamp is flawed, the real differential is that there are more AD champions with a sustained DPS type of damage, and sustained DPS is the most effective way to use life recovery per attack/skill. -------------------------------------------------------------------- 5; Ironically, there is a summoner spell called cleanse which nobody uses on mages for some unknown reason.[/quote]

[quote=Temzilla][quote=DuffTime] 1; Health is the natural counter to burst type champions. Burst mages are not supposed to be able to burst down a tank. They are supposed to burst down squishy champions (Which they do excellently) However, Champions like Ryze, Karthus, Kogmaw (When built AP with some AS), Cass, etc, can use their abilities to down any target, because they have -sustained- DPS. Not burst. Sustained DPS is the only way to kill tanky targets, not burst. --------------------------------------------------------------- 2; Believe me, it's intentional that most mages don't have any escapes. ----------------------------------------------------------------- 3; Life steal and spell vamp are not as different as you think, they are essentially exactly the same thing. What you mean to say is that life steal and spell vamp are more functional when you have a sustained DPS type of champion rather than a bursty type of damage dealer. Watch what happens when Ryze and Karthus buy a WotA... It's very comparable to when an AD carry buys a BT. Your analysis of Life steal and Spell vamp is flawed, the real differential is that there are more AD champions with a sustained DPS type of damage, and sustained DPS is the most effective way to use life recovery per attack/skill. -------------------------------------------------------------------- 5; Ironically, there is a summoner spell called cleanse which nobody uses on mages for some unknown reason. [/quote] I remember when Kassadin was considered bad if he didn't run cleanse lol. I generally like to run mages with very low cooldowns, Mordekaiser, Gragas, Karthus, Ryze, and Cassio. I agree that life steal and spell vamp are the same thing, but i don't agree that they are balanced to one another. Life Steal items are more common, a little bit more expensive, and are easy to itemize for. Spell vamp however, only comes on two items, one is really expensive for mages, and the other is OP as shit, and even long cooldown mages like AP Tristana have been known to get it. The thing that riot is scared of, is people like Vlad or Mordekaiser becoming unkillable god champions because of a ton of spellvamp. In the case of vlad, that is a valid argument, because his heal on Q/E/R is massive, and he can build a single resist item and be tanky enough to spell vamp through a lot more punishment than he should be able to otherwise because of his passive. Vlad at his core, isn't a balanced champion though, his heal scales with AP and is a flat amount instead of being based on a "damage done" mechanic, and his passive gives him free tankyness for building damage items which often have tankiness on them, (Rylai's+Deathcap+Abyssal+Zhonya vlad is an offtank.) and he has a really good escape mechanic.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]Well... WotA is a great item. It's not like you're stabbing yourself in the foot to buy it. Look at Ryze, he's another classic case of an OUTSTANDING champion to buy a WotA on. What you guys are really asking for is more sustained DPS mages who can use spellvamp the way traditional AD carry types use lifesteal. They can introduce all the new vamp items they want but it won't change the fact that most AP carry types are burst oriented and can't use vamp efficiently. I think it'd be cool to see a few more, but if Riot does that they'll need to introduce a few bursty AD caster types like Talon (Maybe change Jarvan and Panth a bit, to fit the role as well) and also add in another, cheaper albeit functional vamp item for those sustained casters. That would essentially translate into AD burst casters who can mid, and sustained DPS AP casters who get supported bot lane. I believe that Riot shys away from doing so because right now the game is easy for people to understand, and the average player may not know when or why to use the items if the depth expanded and the complexity increased.[/quote]

[quote=Mastarwe][quote=DuffTime] I believe that Riot shys away from doing so because right now the game is easy for people to understand, and the average player may not know when or why to use the items if the depth expanded and the complexity increased. [/quote] The one thing many experienced players want :( Ryze bot (with a support) isn't as bad as many are thinking though :P ryze + soraka = (almost) inf q-spam![/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]Yes I've been saying for a long time now that Ryze can literally go into any lane. He can probably even jungle now ffs. Really good, flexible kit.[/quote]

[quote=ZioSerpe][quote=DuffTime] Well... WotA is a great item. It's not like you're stabbing yourself in the foot to buy it. Look at Ryze, he's another classic case of an OUTSTANDING champion to buy a WotA on. What you guys are really asking for is more sustained DPS mages who can use spellvamp the way traditional AD carry types use lifesteal. They can introduce all the new vamp items they want but it won't change the fact that most AP carry types are burst oriented and can't use vamp efficiently. I think it'd be cool to see a few more, but if Riot does that they'll need to introduce a few bursty AD caster types like Talon (Maybe change Jarvan and Panth a bit, to fit the role as well) and also add in another, cheaper albeit functional vamp item for those sustained casters. That would essentially translate into AD burst casters who can mid, and sustained DPS AP casters who get supported bot lane. I believe that Riot shys away from doing so because right now the game is easy for people to understand, and the average player may not know when or why to use the items if the depth expanded and the complexity increased. [/quote] Seriusly, sustained mage DPS? [[cassiopeia]] case closed. Pantheon IS A FUCKING AD CATSER TYPE LIKE TALON. The fact you people are dumb enough to go tanky DPS on him doesn't make him one. Panth is THE champ I learnt LoL with, and the 1st one I ever theorycrafted on, npot to mention the champ I learn how to itemize with, I've seen lots of fail to shit builds on, at the beginning people went aspd/AD on him, then I that one hilarious phrek spotlight, and now lots of people playing him as a tanky DPS, obviusly I'm not even a fucking bit surprised none of them is in high elo. Pantheon is an AD caster, try build him correctly and you'll see. Also [[Riven]] can be considered an AD caster, unless obviusly you're so dumb to read guide from mobafire and build her watmoggs. I learnt that on my skin and to hell I'm going for watmoggs riven again, but what the hell do I know, I cna clearly recall westrice playing riven as a watmoggs char at MLG, oh wait... TL;DR frozen mallet or crit or watmogs on [[pantheon]]? kill yourself[/quote]