COUNTER PICKING

[quote=Trojan995]In a committed fight, Vayne does extraordinarily well, in lane or in a teamfight. In lane, when poking is just as prominent as committed fights, vayne can either win or lose, depending on how you play and how the enemy plays. Ashe does surprisingly well against vayne in lane. I wouldn't call her a counter any more than any other champion with poke is a counter to vayne, but I think Ashe does best against Vayne in lane. This is because 1. Ashe outranges vayne, and 2. Ashe has some pretty heavy poke that can generally stop vayne from [[tumble]] poking so hard (by slowing her), if not matching her damage. If vayne commits to the fight, Ashe is screwed, but Ashe doesn't really have to fight vayne. She just has to farm, and she can slow vayne if she ever gets a gank. There's not many champions that Ashe can safely farm against. Vayne is one of them. TL;DR Ashe doesn't counter vayne, Ashe just succeeds in farming against vayne.[/quote]

[quote=Khazem][quote=DuffTime] I don't believe it's possible for a player of equal skill to shut Vayne down so hard that she can never come back.[/quote] I also don't think she can be shut down so hard that she can never come back, but she can fall behind quite far and never be as effective as she could be. [quote=DuffTime] I believe the players in solo queue, and TOURNAMENT play, are -unable- to shut her down that hard. Because the reality is, if you just simply skill Silver Bolts first, then you crush faces.[/quote] In tournament play for example, the way people deal with her laning weakness is have a Soraka babysit her and turn the lane into a passive farmfest. OR they put a really agressive Alistar with her and have the jungler pressure bottom lane alot. If she DOES get a kill, even before 6, she'll dominate the lane. (but even then, the vayne will max Condemn first for the added burst. Though I do agree Silver Bolts is the way in most cases) [quote=DuffTime] You cannot trade with a Vayne that level Silver bolts as a squishy AD carry type. [/quote] I disagree. Few examples: Caitlyn: can't trade with her due to the range, she'd have to tumble into her in which case she's vulnerable and she'd likely be too close to the caster minions, automatically losing the trade. Tristana: superior range + superior burst. Trist doesn't have to trade with Vayne, she just blows her up at 6 with an agressive support. Graves: superior damage output overall in the early game, don't think any AD can trade with Graves. [quote=DuffTime] It's the same Catch22 we saw for ages with Akali. If you can't shut her down, she rapes you. Well eventually people learned how to play her correctly and suddenly you couldn't shut her down anymore, meaning she just rapes you by default. Well, Vayne is not to the extent that Akali was because Akali had more bullshit tools, but Vayne is a really big problem, that's for sure. Her lane is not as weak as you feel it is.[/quote] I really believe in a straight up 2v2, Vayne is at a disadvantage against most AD + support setups. Unless she has a very agressive jungler that puts alot of pressure on bottom lane, or a very sustained support that allows her to keep up in farm, she SHOULD be shut down by some other AD carries, assuming they play the lane correctly.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime][quote=Trojan995] There's not many champions that Ashe can safely farm against. Vayne is one of them. TL;DR Ashe doesn't counter vayne, Ashe just succeeds in farming against vayne. [/quote] Nooooope you must be playing against a real pussy Vayne if you feel that way. Ashe just dies every time she shows up to lane against a good Vayne player, as soon as the Vayne feels ready to pounce. [quote=Khazem] (but even then, the vayne will max Condemn first for the added burst. Though I do agree Silver Bolts is the way in most cases) [/quote] Lol, nope. Not anymore. In every tourny for like the past month and all scrims and every high elo game I've watched on stream it's all Silver Bolts all day. [quote=Khazem] I disagree. Few examples: Caitlyn: can't trade with her due to the range, she'd have to tumble into her in which case she's vulnerable and she'd likely be too close to the caster minions, automatically losing the trade. Tristana: superior range + superior burst. Trist doesn't have to trade with Vayne, she just blows her up at 6 with an agressive support. Graves: superior damage output overall in the early game, don't think any AD can trade with Graves. [/quote] Actually Vayne with maxed silver bolts and ult can trade with any and all of those champions and flat out kill them. If you're skilled with tumble you can potentially negate the brunt of many of those champions damage as well and just make killing them even easier. [quote=Khazem] I really believe in a straight up 2v2, Vayne is at a disadvantage against most AD + support setups. Unless she has a very agressive jungler that puts alot of pressure on bottom lane, or a very sustained support that allows her to keep up in farm, she SHOULD be shut down by some other AD carries, assuming they play the lane correctly. [/quote] which is exactly why I am saying her lane is really not as weak as you think it is. You're underestimating her lane presence. It's never easy to shut down a ranged champion in lane. Never. Unless you're a tanky DPS with resistances.[/quote]

[quote=Nighthawk][quote=DuffTime] ^ Lol wut da... Ren doesn't counter Nasus... And I don't think Nasus is a soft counter to Singed either o_o And I don't think Nasus counters WW either LOL. [/quote] Ren most definitely counters Nasus. Ren completely and utterly rapes Nasus every time he steps into range. If Ren doesn't push lane, it's gg for that lane. Nasus doesn't really counter singed persay, but it's an easy lane for Nasus because he can just farm all day and a farmed Nasus > farmed singed. He also does more damage then Singed. Same pretty much vs WW. WW can zone him out a bit super early game, but can't do anything else, and a Nasus will never ever die to a WW in lane.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]Nasus can die to WW. Nasus can die to Singed. Ren does not counter Nasus. Nasus actually almost counters Ren...[/quote]

[quote=Fox Rage]IMO, Nasus get countered by AT LEAST 95% of the champ in lane. That,s why you must NEVER pick him as one of the first pick if you're in draft mode. He's is way too situational. Nasus is only good agaisnt champion that relies heavily on AS. Like Xin, Teemo, Yi, Kayle, etc. Not sure about Yi, because if my memory is correct, his ulti make he unable to lose AS, unless Riot changed that.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]I agree he gets countered easily.[/quote]

[quote=EvilDice][quote=Temzilla] Trundle counters Yorick. [/quote] All melee counters spammable ranged poke? Wat.[/quote]

[quote=Khazem][quote=DuffTime] Lol, nope. Not anymore. In every tourny for like the past month and all scrims and every high elo game I've watched on stream it's all Silver Bolts all day. [/quote] Yeah you're probably right actually, I can't remember the last time I've seen a Vayne not max Silver Bolts first [quote=DuffTime] Actually Vayne with maxed silver bolts and ult can trade with any and all of those champions and flat out kill them. [/quote] True. Assuming she's not behind on levels and not too far behind on farm. Sure it's true damage and all, but you need to take into account creep damage/the fact that the other AD will be ahead and stronger overall. [quote=DuffTime] which is exactly why I am saying her lane is really not as weak as you think it is. You're underestimating her lane presence. It's never easy to shut down a ranged champion in lane. Never. Unless you're a tanky DPS with resistances. [/quote] The way bottom lane is usually played against Vayne is you push her to her tower. She deals poorly with being pushed early game. Alot of champions have free reign over the lane against Vayne pre-6, which is where they can get ahead far enough to not die to her when she does hit 6, UNLESS she gets a lot of jungle support and that's exactly why I think she's a weak laner. Especially currently, a lot of how a lane goes is decided pre-6.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime][quote=EvilDice] All melee counters spammable ranged poke? Wat. [/quote] Unless they since patched it, his passive used to proc off of ghouls dying. lololol.[/quote]