Maxing Devastating Charge First On Hecarim

[quote=Sanguined]Hear me out before you scream! I thought I'd post this because I would love for you smarter people to ponder it even in a what-the-hell-is-he-thinking way. ^^ I did a guide about this. But the guide itself isn't important in this, just this point about E that I mentioned there, so you don't need to see it. I've jungled fine with Hecarim without maxing Q or W first. You can try the build and it goes to level 4 blue and red buff fine without return. Now Devastating charge: The movespeed is static in level ups so for brevity I'll skip that. It is his main and only ganking tool before level 6, neither Q or W are good in ganks. So cooldown reduction through level ups speeds the rate of his ganks, which I believe is vital. Most importantly damage output in ganks. I feel maxing E first dramatically increases ganking damage, which is vital for a gank centric champ like Hecarim. I am cooking up guesstimates here so bear with me. We'll assume a full dmg E. So at rank 5 this will deal 360 (+1.0 bonus ad) bonus damage on next attack. So that's 2xbase attack with sheen, 2xbonus ad (the normal attack and the +1.0 bonus ad described) which is increased by his passive during the +75% movespeed during the charge along with 360 physical damage. People forget the passive is affected by the 75% movespeed bonus, and that there is a normal attack along with the damage and that the ratio is 1:1 ad unlike his other abilities. It's all physical, so a rushed brutalizer helps all these attributed improve, even the CDR. I know, this is rank 5 with sheen, but even at lower ranks during a gank which lasts a few seconds I believe E is much stronger than Q or W. I hope someone more competent than I with numbers and theory crafting can have a go at working out the realistic estimates of E dmg. Thank you for reading and sorry for prattling on :)[/quote]

[quote=Jpikachu1999]Here are my reasons for not maxing [[Devastating Charge]] first on [[Hecarim]]. Other's reasons may vary, but these are mine. CDR on an ability is good. However, at max level, that is still 16 seconds [b]with no CDR[/b]. This means, you get to use it once a gank. After your initial damage, you are relying on your lane to provide damage to kill your enemy. You get more AD from the movespeed bonus, but, as soon as you auto attack, you lose MS bonus. Since the MS bonus is flat across all levels, you will still get the same AD bonus from a level 1 [[Devastating Charge]] or a level 5 one. Thus, leveling up [[Rampage]] first, gives you an extremely low cooldown skill that does constant damage. Level 5 [[Rampage]] in 16 seconds (assuming that you never get the cooldown buff on it) = 760 (+2.4 per bonus attack damage) physical damage. Level 5 [[Devastating Charge]] = 360 (+1.0 per bonus attack damage) physical damage, and that doesn't even consider that you need to wait to build up max damage. Thus, here is a recap. If you want burst damage with your ganks, max E first. If you want [b]more[/b] damage, but the damage is spaced out, max Q first. If you want faster jungling, max Q first. If you want to be able to 1v1 someone, max Q first. I don't mean to sound harsh, but, frankly, that's the truth.[/quote]

[quote=b3astliness]Sheen does not deliver a 2x bonus, it only gives a set bonus amount i think its 1.0. If it was 2.0 then frankly triforce would lose a lot of its credibility. Just wanted to point that out.[/quote]

[quote=Jpikachu1999]It doesn't give 2.0. It gives exactly the amount of base AD you have as bonus damage. Base AD is the AD you would have without any runes, masteries, abilities, items etc.[/quote]

[quote=Temzilla]Keep in mind that with 40% CDR, Q has a .4 second cooldown.[/quote]

[quote=Jpikachu1999]You mean 1.2 seconds, and that only applies when both stacks of it are up. Still pretty fast, but not quite .4.[/quote]

[quote=lifebaka][quote=Jpikachu1999] Thus, leveling up [[Rampage]] first, gives you an extremely low cooldown skill that does constant damage. Level 5 [[Rampage]] in 16 seconds (assuming that you never get the cooldown buff on it) = 760 (+2.4 per bonus attack damage) physical damage. Level 5 [[Devastating Charge]] = 360 (+1.0 per bonus attack damage) physical damage, and that doesn't even consider that you need to wait to build up max damage. [/quote] I think it may be a little more useful to compare reasonable damage in a single gank on each. [[Devastating Charge]] does 80 + (70/rank) + (1/bonus AD), but its cooldown at all levels is long enough that you aren't going to be able to use it twice in the same gank. [[Rampage]] does 50 + (35/rank) + (.6/bonus AD), and its cooldown at all levels is low enough to be used twice in many successful ganks (clearly not if they burn [[Flash]], but then you're not going to get much damage either way). So, if Devastating Charge is used once, while Rampage can probably be used twice, we're looking at 80 + (70/rank) + (1/bonus AD) damage on Devastating Charge versus 100 + (70/rank) + (1.2/bonus AD) damage on Rampage. As long as the second Rampage hits, maxing it first gives an extra 20 + (.2/bonus AD) damage. If a third or fourth hit, then Rampage's damage pulls even further ahead. Likewise if Rampage hits more than one target. I also note that all other damage sources are identical for ranking the two skills, because neither influences Hecarim's stats or how often he can proc [[Sheen]]. Also, ranking Rampage first will help Hecarim clear faster, which should actually increase how often he can gank.[/quote]

[quote=Sanguined][quote=lifebaka] So, if Devastating Charge is used once, while Rampage can probably be used twice, we're looking at 80 + (70/rank) + (1/bonus AD) damage on Devastating Charge versus 100 + (70/rank) + (1.2/bonus AD) damage on Rampage. As long as the second Rampage hits, maxing it first gives an extra 20 + (.2/bonus AD) damage. If a third or fourth hit, then Rampage's damage pulls even further ahead. Likewise if Rampage hits more than one target. [/quote] But both base dmg and bonus ad could be ignored, I'm not saying to use E instead of Q, so both hit their respective times in a gank, that means the only value to look at there is the per rank, [b]which with 2 Qs is equal to one E.[/b] However, a rampage has a 4 sec cooldown on a gank, it's hard to manage the 2 second one from creeps to gank. In a gank that lasts less than 4 seconds E would be stronger right? I personally see a lot of ganks that fall into this category. [quote=Jpikachu1999] If you want burst damage with your ganks, max E first. If you want [b]more[/b] damage, but the damage is spaced out, max Q first. If you want faster jungling, max Q first. If you want to be able to 1v1 someone, max Q first. [/quote] I guess that's it really, I do prefer burst on early ganks, but I understand he is stronger overall maxing Q. I would say that even maxing Q first he isn't the swiftest jungler, and on 1v1s, most likely with invading jungle champs, he would lose out even with maxed Q. [b]I maybe still feel that he has the best potential strength in the jungle as a swift early game ganker[/b]. In mid game the levelling of Q second fixes his dueling and clearing issues. But also getting W last means he is all physical damage too, meaning items like the Brutalizer and Ghostblade's strengths are better. And I still believe W as an ability is strongest late game. Thank you all and sorry that I'm still not completely assuaged ^^[/quote]

[quote=Xaioli]I'm not going to comment about Hecarim since I don't play him. I definitely bought him and tried him out, just not my type. Mainly here to talk about one of your final statements, "I mayby still feel that he has the best potential strength in the jungle as a swift early game ganker." I know it's going to sound harsh but you're unfortunately incorrect. There are a ton of faster junglers that clear and gank better than Hecarim. If you're concerned about clearing speed, Mundo; Shyvana, Udyr laugh at the jungle. If you want godlike ganks, Nautilus; Nocturne, Alistar, etc. I know you WANT to play Hecarim jungle but unfortunately in this current patch and meta, Hecarim is very outshined in the jungle compared to others and he'll get laughed at by knowledgeable and experienced players :\. Anyways, good luck![/quote]

[quote=Sanguined]Oh I know :( I do like Hecarim and I play a lot of champs in the jungle I know are better. It's not really compared to other champs but more compared to his own routes that I feel his abilities lend themselves to being a fast ganker early game and a disruptor later on. It's more that current jungle Hecarim guides say to level W first, and I feel that leads to an okay clearing speed, but no strength in ganks. I prefer a slightly weaker clearing speed but stronger ganks. I tried top lane Hecarim a bit and did not like. I believe he is weaker there than in the jungle.[/quote]