Using The Brutalizer with Last Whisper...

[quote=Visfarix][quote=Ace Ventura] The Brutalizer/Youmuu's are same, penetration. Stark's Fervor and Cleaver are reduction and they can go bellow 0, while penetration can penetrate only what is there. As I said reduction aplies before penetration. So, reduction and penetration are not smart to combine in most of the cases. [/quote] This might be true in the early-mid game when Armor Pen Reds and Quints + a Youmuu's will give you 45 Armor Pen, more than enough in most cases. However once you get to late game when everyone has over 100 Armor and tanks have well over 200, this will most definitely not be enough. Considering the only items with flat Armor Pen are Brutalizer, Sword of the Divine, and Youmuu's, it is inevitable that you will have to get a Black Cleaver or sell your youmuu's for a Last Whisper if you hope to do significant damage.[/quote]

[quote=Ace Ventura][quote=Visfarix] [quote=Ace Ventura] The Brutalizer/Youmuu's are same, penetration. Stark's Fervor and Cleaver are reduction and they can go bellow 0, while penetration can penetrate only what is there. As I said reduction aplies before penetration. So, reduction and penetration are not smart to combine in most of the cases. [/quote] This might be true in the early-mid game when Armor Pen Reds and Quints + a Youmuu's will give you 45 Armor Pen, more than enough in most cases. However once you get to late game when everyone has over 100 Armor and tanks have well over 200, this will most definitely not be enough. Considering the only items with flat Armor Pen are Brutalizer, Sword of the Divine, and Youmuu's, it is inevitable that you will have to get a Black Cleaver or sell your youmuu's for a Last Whisper if you hope to do significant damage. [/quote] Most of the games end before late game. Black Cleaver is sn extremely DPS option so it depend on who you playing as. It is a very teamwork item cause it works better if you got DPS'ers in your team. Cleaver is also very good item is they are only squishies. Cause reduction goes bellow 0. But it makes your armor penetration useless. I didn't said never get Last Whisper or The Black Cleaver. I've said they are very situational items.[/quote]

[quote=Ace Ventura]Also you can use Youmuu's Ghostblade and The Brutalizer together for even more armor penetration. They are 2 different items so they stack.[/quote]

[quote=nand]Last Whisper scales badly versus most teams even on its own, it's literally only effective against tanks. Pick it up if they have a completely tanky team with tons of Armor stacking, but otherwise just go with your standard ~60 flat penetration. Black Cleaver on the other hand is simply awesome, especially since it can go below 0.[/quote]

[quote=Trojan995]Ah man, this is making me doubt the way I've been running Caitlyn since she came out; Youmuu's/Black Cleaver/SotD and I was just about to whip out Stark's. Meh, I'll just grab a madred's and roll with % health damage instead of even more Armor reduction.[/quote]

[quote=Jebus McAzn]Don't - that way is fine. It's Last Whisper that is wasted potential here. Flat armor penetration is not affected whatsoever, and getting those items will continue to lower their armor below zero, increasing your damage output. Although TBH if you've got those items, you have crazy attack speed but not enough damage, so maybe get an IE or something.[/quote]

[quote=ExamplePrime]Imagine a Sion or Master Yi with Youmuu's/Black Cleaver/SotD...[/quote]

[quote=Jebus McAzn]Screw those guys, imagine Corki... I'M SORRY IS THAT NEGATIVE FIVE BILLION ARMOR YOU HAVE THERE[/quote]

[quote=Trojan995][quote=Jebus McAzn] Don't - that way is fine. It's Last Whisper that is wasted potential here. Flat armor penetration is not affected whatsoever, and getting those items will continue to lower their armor below zero, increasing your damage output. Although TBH if you've got those items, you have crazy attack speed but not enough damage, so maybe get an IE or something. [/quote] Yeah, I was sort of confused about this whole "ArPen doesn't penetrate past 0 Armor" thing, because I remember lvx's thread about it. I still think Madreds>Starks for the way I'm trying to build caitlyn, so I can tear through pretty much any tank no matter how bulky. You're probably right, I did have an IE in my build, but I'll look into building it sooner.[/quote]

[quote=Jebus McAzn]I do know that armor reduction can lower their armor below zero, and the same goes for MR reduction. If you've got an Amumu at level 18 attack a blue buff Golem (which already has -30 magic resist), you'll see his MR drop to -65 as soon as you land that first attack. While you might waste potential on the armor penetration, the flat armor reduction from Stark's and Black Cleaver should still apply. Oh, also: From the official League of Legends website: "ARMOR PENETRATION The order in which Armor Penetration is calculated: Base Armor+Items. Armor After Reductions from status effects/skills/items. % Armor Penetration. Flat Armor Penetration." This is interesting. I never knew that Last Whisper's effects proc before flat armor penetration... We may have to rethink our opinions in this thread.[/quote]