Mobafire Community Tier List!

[quote=Vapora Dark][quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=Vapora Dark] [quote=Pheyniex] if any ad midlaner manages to kill you or zone you hard early, Seeker's means nothing and Vapora has shown you he can deal with glacial shrouds. [/quote] Omg someone remembers that. :D But yeah that's a good point, your glacial shroud TF barely did anything to survive against my Talon in that inhouse ( unfortunately koksei's ganks did >:[ ). If I can handle glacial shroud, I can handle seeker's armguard easily. [/quote] 1) I played awful that game. [/quote] Regardless of how you were playing, my burst as Talon was still destroying you despite you having, I think, both Seeker's Armguard and Glacial Shroud. And I wasn't fed either, thanks to Koksei's ganks, which by the way, I seemed to have handled pretty well for a champion who's "easy to gank". [quote]Numbers do not matter if you don't know enough. Such as this, we don't know who played talon. A random noob guy or a guy who mains him. Let a diamond Talon main and a diamond Zed main play 50 games of mid lane and then compare all the stats. I'll guarantee you that Zed will be the clear winner.[/quote] Apparently you didn't notice me inform you in the chat about my edit, so I'll just repeat my edit as it's entirely relevant to what you just said. A diamond main vs a Zed main, best out of 50 games? Even better, best out of 500+ games, a diamond Talon main vs 4 diamond Zed mains. These are the Talon stats of Insoy, a Diamond 1 Talon main, who also has the highest Elo of any player to have hundreds of games played with Talon. [img]http://i.imgur.com/PZ5BTx3.png[/img] These are the stats of the 4 highest Elo players to have hundreds of games played with Zed. [img]http://i.imgur.com/8FOEQ1w.png[/img] [img]http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/4909/lgt750e.png[/img] [img]http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/4954/lgtf96bx.png[/img] [img]http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/5659/lgt6cf7.png[/img] None of them have as good a win ratio as Insoy does with Talon. Nor do they beat him in a flat amount of wins above losses. NOR do they have better stats than him. Insoy also has a higher Elo than them, meaning he also plays against better players than them, yet still maintains a stronger win rate and stats with a supposedly weaker champ. Your argument of noobs and bad players playing Zed is irrelevant here, because these are all diamond players who clearly have experience with Zed, considering they each have 500+ games played with him. But please do go on about how I'm stupid because I can counter your arguments with perfectly valid information, and I should just accept that I'm wrong because you say so, whether you can back that up or not. I know you're stubborn as hell, so undoubtedly you're still going to try and argue Talon's bad and Zed is better, even though I just completely destroyed your theory that a Zed main would win a Talon game in 50 games. Looking forward to you calling me stupid then giving another argument that I will tear apart again. xoxo[/quote]

[quote=NicknameMy]The list has to be definitly splitted into the different lanes, otherwise, there is no chance to order that correctly. And we have to choose for which type of elo the list is. For example, a [[katarina]] is way better at lower elo than higher elo. And some champs like [[shen]] begin to shine at competetive teamplay.[/quote]

[quote=Wayne3100][quote=Luther3000] I think it's already become obvious in this thread why a community list doesn't work. [/quote] This. @ The whole [[Talon]] discussion: Numbers are nice, but don't mean everything. [[Talon]] is less popular, therefore his win rate is most likely influenced more by players who like playing him and have invested the time and effort required to become good with him. That doesn't mean there are no [[Zed]] players who have done the same (you've shown stats of those players, too), but a difference in popularity will have an influence on this and it's not necessarily true that the winrate of a more popular champion should be (way) higher than the winrate of one that is not "if champ X is really better than champ Y". It's also different for players who face these different assassins. If I'm up against a good [[Zed]], I will have a tough time because he's a strong champion, but I know how he works, what I have to watch out for and how much damage he deals. Against [[Talon]], I'd have no idea. I will guarantee you I'm gonna get smashed the next time I face a great [[Talon]] player in mid lane. Sure, I know his abilities, but how much damage they deal at a certain level / with certain items..... Beats me. In the end, win rates don't always tell the whole story. If a new champion gets a 60% winrate in the first week, that tells you the whole story: OP, nerf pls. If a champion has a very low win rate ([[Heimerdinger]], [[Poppy]], [[Olaf]]), that generally tells you they're also not the best. In the end though, they're just that. Win rates. The question I would ask is: if [[Talon]] is better than [[Zed]], why is he not more popular? He hasn't been buffed recently, has he? How long has he been as strong as he is now but barely used? I mean, Dekar173 / Best Rengar NA has also owned players with [[Rengar]] on several Diamond accounts, but that still doesn't make the champ Tier 1. Edit: Oh, and btw, you are welcome to continue this discussion, but not by calling each other idiots or making sarcastic remarks. That goes for everyone.[/quote]

[quote=Pheyniex][quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=Vapora Dark] [quote=Pheyniex] if any ad midlaner manages to kill you or zone you hard early, Seeker's means nothing and Vapora has shown you he can deal with glacial shrouds. [/quote] Omg someone remembers that. :D But yeah that's a good point, your glacial shroud TF barely did anything to survive against my Talon in that inhouse ( unfortunately koksei's ganks did >:[ ). If I can handle glacial shroud, I can handle seeker's armguard easily. [/quote] 2) I'm done, go on put Talon in the Talon Tier above everything else, I really don't give a fuck. This is supposed to be a mobafire tier list no one will really care about anyway. @pheyniex: Numbers do not matter if you don't know enough. Such as this, we don't know who played talon. A random noob guy or a guy who mains him. Let a diamond Talon main and a diamond Zed main play 50 games of mid lane and then compare all the stats. I'll guarantee you that Zed will be the clear winner. [/quote] oh wait, there is loads of statistics and played games, let's just ignore and overthrow them with my opinion because i can't selfjerk enough in this forum. now seriously... if you don't really care about the numbers, you are taking the human factor of the game where it doesn't interest you, just to add that [[Zed]] has more burst than [[talon]] disregarding if someone has the ability to actually use it. that is why those numbers matter. even though i can't stand playing as either, [[Zed]] risks contributing mush less than [[talon]] in total damage output due to AoE. sure, safer in lane, afk farm, ranged harass, and you love him to bits, but pleople should stop using the "this>>>>>that" mindset and remember that each champion has a playstyle and a purpose. you may play him very well, understand him very well, but when you introduce yourself and your decisionmaking to [[Zed]] you stop being a number, yes, a number you are arguing that speaks for itself, this "burst" you speak of. No (!), you have to play him accordingly to make that damage happen. (even though i still think [[talon]] is way better for aoe) [quote=GrandmasterD] 1) I played awful that game. [/quote] i hope it still counts, or does it not? [quote] trust me, it's not worth it to argue with idiots, even though i don't take my own advice[/quote] i agree, some people just stubbornly refuse to use their tiny heads to accept facts like global warming and values like humility.[/quote]

[quote=mastrer1000]guess i'll ruin this tier list even more :D [color=#00ff00]god tier(mid):[/color] [[ryze]] [color=#ff0000]shit tier(mid):[/color] everyone else [color=#00ff00]god tier(top):[/color] [[ryze]] [color=#ff0000]shit tier(top):[/color] everyone else(maybe [[singed]] is a bit higher) [color=#00ff00]god tier(jungle):[/color] [[malphite]]. just kidding.[[ryze]] [color=#ff0000]shit tier(jungle):[/color] everyone else [color=#00ff00]god tier(adc):[/color] [[ryze]] [color=#ff0000]shit tier(adc):[/color] everyone else [color=#800080]even shittier tier(adc):[/color] [[nidalee]]. seriously bronze guys, what the fuck [color=#00ff00]god tier(support):[/color] [[ryze]] [color=#ff0000]shit tier(support):[/color] everyone else for the [[talon]] vs. [[zed]] discussion: i vote for [[talon]] because AoE op.[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=Vapora Dark] [quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=Vapora Dark] [quote=Pheyniex] if any ad midlaner manages to kill you or zone you hard early, Seeker's means nothing and Vapora has shown you he can deal with glacial shrouds. [/quote] Omg someone remembers that. :D But yeah that's a good point, your glacial shroud TF barely did anything to survive against my Talon in that inhouse ( unfortunately koksei's ganks did >:[ ). If I can handle glacial shroud, I can handle seeker's armguard easily. [/quote] 1) I played awful that game. [/quote] Looking forward to you calling me stupid then giving another argument that I will tear apart again. xoxo [/quote] I am calling you stupid because you keep pointing out numbers and disregard anything else. You managed to win against me when I was playing an awful TF game, big deal. You also lost to my Kassadin from level 2 and on even though everyone will tell you that Talon should stomp that matchup. Also if you look at the numbers, Talon probably has the edge there. Stop looking at numbers and start looking at how champions work and how their kit works. As a mid laner I have not seen a Talon since the arrival of Seeker's Armguard and even before he wasn't popular due to his latest nerfs. There are many matchups in which Talon gets crushed as a result of Seeker's Armguard (inb4 more numbers). Also, the fact that Pheyniex is backing you up doesn't exactly do your cause any good, but you knew that already right? ;P[/quote]

[quote=mastrer1000]i saw a talon a week or so ago. i tried athene's ryze build there, so i lost :D[/quote]

[quote=Jebus McAzn]since it's obvious that NOBODY has taken wayne's request to take the talon conversation to PMs, i'm going to have to be the bad cop here and say that if you can't keep the talon discussion civil, i'm going to start deleting posts.[/quote]

[quote=Crows foot]Jebus: he never said that, just to quit with flame and badmouthing! :-P[/quote]

[quote=Vapora Dark][quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=Vapora Dark] [quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=Vapora Dark] [quote=Pheyniex] if any ad midlaner manages to kill you or zone you hard early, Seeker's means nothing and Vapora has shown you he can deal with glacial shrouds. [/quote] Omg someone remembers that. :D But yeah that's a good point, your glacial shroud TF barely did anything to survive against my Talon in that inhouse ( unfortunately koksei's ganks did >:[ ). If I can handle glacial shroud, I can handle seeker's armguard easily. [/quote] 1) I played awful that game. [/quote] Looking forward to you calling me stupid then giving another argument that I will tear apart again. xoxo [/quote] I am calling you stupid because you keep pointing out numbers and disregard anything else. You managed to win against me when I was playing an awful TF game, big deal. You also lost to my Kassadin from level 2 and on even though everyone will tell you that Talon should stomp that matchup. Also if you look at the numbers, Talon probably has the edge there. Stop looking at numbers and start looking at how champions work and how their kit works. As a mid laner I have not seen a Talon since the arrival of Seeker's Armguard and even before he wasn't popular due to his latest nerfs. There are many matchups in which Talon gets crushed as a result of Seeker's Armguard (inb4 more numbers). Also, the fact that Pheyniex is backing you up doesn't exactly do your cause any good, but you knew that already right? ;P [/quote] I've not seen a Talon in any single game since the Talon free week before the one that just passed. It's not just because of Armguard, he's just genuinely unpopular for some reason. I find it funny how numbers only became irrelevant after I proved this wrong. [quote]Let a diamond Talon main and a diamond Zed main play 50 games of mid lane and then compare all the stats. I'll guarantee you that Zed will be the clear winner.[/quote] Looking past numbers though, Zed's kit is basically just massive single-target burst. Talon has lower single-target burst, but more than enough to 1-shot squishies in team-fights regardless, and has the added bonus of AoE, and [i]strong[/i] AoE. He also has more kill potential in-lane, more ease with pushing and farming past Tiamat ( Insoy also agrees it's core on Talon ), better ganks, better splitpush ( which is viable on certain champs, talon being one of them I just discovered ), better dueling, better late-game sticking power... Maybe there's more, but I can't think of any. Ganks are also not a massive problem for him because he has high movement speed, and if you couple that with movement speed quints no jungler can reach him. Even without movement speed quints though, I haven't had much trouble with jungler ganks.[/quote]