i think that tiamat is one of the most underrated items in the game, and, as far as my concern goes, this item is a great choice for lee sin. Thank u for a very amusing guide :D

I didn't mean that Randuin's was a bad choice at all, I just meant that it was too specialized to deserve a place in his core build IMHO. Since you mostly play Lee Sin against AD teams, it makes sense that it is a part of your core. I just see it as a situational item, a good one, but situational nonetheless.

Not to stalk you.... ;)

This remind me of the, "I'm playing Ez, I don't need flash summoner" mentality.

I view it more as... "If one flash is good, two flashes is better."

Since I only pick Lee sin vrs AD heavy teams, to make full use of his 1v1 capability and his amazing slowing skill, I actually -do- find that buying Randuin's is often times a very good choice, for the all around stats in terms of armor, HP, the passive, the active, CDR, etc. The fact that it build from a Gp5 item, and Warden's mail (One of LEe's bet items for an easy laning phase vrs AD champs) I think Randuin's is a logical item choice for Lee in a lot of games =)

I generally open with Lee's cripple, and then Randuin's after the fact, so they continue to be disabled throughout the duration of the fight.

I don't get a Randuin's Omen because the active on Randuin's Omen is exactly the same as the Cripple portion of Tempest / Cripple except it has a shorter duration and a 35% slow to attack speed and move speed compared to a 60% slow to both with Cripple. Because Lee Sin already gets a fair amount of armor from Iron Will, more health benefits him more than additional armor would. More health also helps you against an AP heavy team wheras the armor from Randuin's Omen only helps you against AD.

The damage with two Tiamats is actually exactly the same as that of a fully-charged BloodThirster, helps you farm/push much faster than a BT does, and you don't lose damage when you die (unlike the bonus damage from BT). That said, BT is 1000gp cheaper so if you find yourself able to hold onto the bonus damage (by not dying) fairly well, then it is probably the better choice, I just find two Tiamats to be more consistent damage.

As for the mana regen on Tiamats, I address that in my guide in the Items section, the part with the subtitle "Aren't you wasting gold by paying for mana regen that you won't even use?" In fewer words, yes, you are wasting gold but building a Tiamat for 2070gp gives you better stats than building a B. F. Sword and a Regrowth Pendandt. It's still cost effective for the stats it gives you, even ignoring the mana regen.

Please read my entire guide before posting.

I would change the Warmorgs into a Randoin´s Omen, just because it cost much lesser and had a skill to aktivate. And u gain more Armor and more tanky.
And pls stop this retarted Tiamat style...----.....
the damage is much lesser then a bloodthirster have and the life regeneration is nothing when u have already a warmogs or a randoin´s omen. And u spend money for mana regernation, why u dont go and spend the money to your enemys?

Fixed.

The working title of this was Tiamat Lee Sin--No Really, It Works!

The famous duff wall in the comments.. haha


I like the different, so im curious to see how it works out.. seems fun in some kind of messed up way ;)

Aye =P



In all honesty I would just delete the part about the wasted gold on Trinity because you seem fine with wasting gold on Tiamat for the effects =P

I won't say you're going to outfarm two Tiamats with Trinity, that'd be false, but, sheen adds a lot of bite to Lee and does drastically improve his rate of farm in it's own right. I generally find farming with Lee is so fast by the time he has 4k gold, that it just doesn't matter what you build, you're out-farming the creep camps respawn time at this point regardless.

I would again note that:

Slows on attack,
HP,
AS,
Crit,
A 150% bonus base damage proc every two seconds, (It's 150, not like Sheen's 100...)
And 12% move speed (Huge attribute for Lee to have for apparently no reason)

All add up to a Lee with -even more- utility than what he started with.

I'm not telling you you must include it in your guide, but I very strongly disagree with the thought that it's over rated, and I think if you realize when and why to use it, you'd possibly even find an occasional place for it in your game from time to time. It's essentially one of the best "focus fire damage" items in the game for Lee. When you want that squishy carry to pop even faster, TF is a great addition in combo with perhaps an I.E. They go SPLAT =)



I agree, a note that Wriggles could be used in place of one of the Tiamats would be an excellent notion and a quick way to improve the flexibility and utility of your guide.

Again, jungle time is nice, but wriggles also accomplishes that, and with Lee's passive, he can clear Dragon and Baron incredibly quickly with Wriggle's; it's very potent.



I would say this is play-style, and I would also say that having multiple play-styles for the same champion can never hurt.

For example, I go through similar style variations as well. When I want to yo-yo as you call it in and out, I built Brutalizer/LastWhisper/Warmogg's/Atma's. When I need more auto attacks, I get the TF/Atma's/Warmogg's/I.E. type combo going earlier. Different tools for different jobs, basically.



Yes, you will farm faster with Tiamats, but I think I'm of the opinion that one would be enough, and you'd perhaps want to move into your Warmogg's and Atma's at that point. Again, I don't yo-yo as much as you do from the sounds of it, but I'm sure your damage would be superior with the yo-yo style using pure armor pen items.



Course, Thinking and testing is what it's all about, and the posting of guides is to share knowledge we've accrued.

We can too learn from the experience of others. =D I'm curious to try your Tiamat item, but I'm not sure where to fit it in on my Lee =/

This looks like a fun build, but you really do have to consider the extra benefits of the items you're not getting. I read your reasoning behind not getting TF or wriggles, and I don't personally have an issue with people not getting these items on Lee. However, the stats you are regarding as redundant, are compounding stats (life steal, slowed enemy movement, increased champ movement, etc.) and with these stats, more is better. So redundancy isn't an issue.

Again, I am going to try the build (in the same manner of humor i had when i tried 5x Tiamats on Gang).

Thaks for the in-depth reply. You are correct, I misread the stats on Tiamat's mana regen, I'll be correcting that shortly. But (as you pointed out) since Lee Sin doesn't use mana the point is basically moot.


In regards to this, I am merely comparing Trinity Force to Tiamats. Both waste gold, and I admit to such. However, I would say that Tiamats are the better choice because they lead to more gold though their superior farm and damage. On net, I'd say that Tiamats are overall more useful even if you ignore the wasted gold, just as you ignore the wasted gold in a Trinity Force.


As for Wriggle's Lantern I agree wholeheartedly, it has great stats, it's a great item. I wasn't criticising Wriggle's for being an early game item, I just believe that its benefits don't match up with the benefits of the additional farm you get from Tiamats. Again, that's my personal opinion and playstyle though. And now that you mention it, I can see a build with a Wriggle's Lantern + one Tiamat being quite effective and combining the benefits of both, especially if the Razor effect splashes with the Tiamat.


As for buying a B. F. Sword and regrowth pendant, then building them into a Warmog and IE, yes, that is a good strategy that I have tried myself. But, an Infinity Edge does less damage than 2 Tiamats and Lee Sin (at least how I play him) doesn't auto-attack enough to take full advantage of the crit chance though I will admit that with the crit chance and damage boost it likely outdamages two Tiamats on net.

Still, there is the farming factor with Tiamats. I guarantee you, it is much faster farming for 2 Tiamats then building Warmog's and Atma's than it is to farm for an IE and then a Warmog's and Atma's. What you sacrifice in damage you make up for by getting items faster, Tiamats keep you ahead of the curve in farming, something Lee Sin falls down on starting in the mid game.

Again, thanks for the excellent reply, gave me a lot to think about. Though I still stand by my assertion about Trinity Force, you may have convinced me otherwise about Wriggle's Lantern. More testing is necessary. :)

I don't know how you can legitimately say it's okay to pay for mana regen but not solid mana in the same guide.

Kinda ****** logic lol. Especially when 180 is about 9% of 2070, and 400 is about 10% of 4070, so the cost inefficiency is not varied enough to be mentioned.

THAT BEING SAID, I will explain the pro's of things you consider to be under rated; and even though you **** on the best item in the game, and perhaps Lee Sin's best item (This is debatable and depends on the game, I don't always build it on Lee. Often don't, actually.) I will forgive you =P

You may not like this, but I'm coming to the defense of things you've shaken your finger at.

Trinity Force Lee Sin: You're not playing the yo-yo style you described. You're going in to stay in and kill a squishy fast.You will want a tank to go first ideally. This means you're going to build perhaps an Atma's / Warmogg's along with the Trinity, and cycle skills with spaces between them to keep your Trinity force proccing and your passive active. Lee can shell out a mind numbing amount of damage quickly with this technique, and quickly get to a squishy little nomnom Ashe~ It should not be considered over rated.

Wriggle's lantern Lee Sin: Basically this means you're carrying an extra, free flash. You'll have faster jungles, better ward control as the game goes, and AD, armor and Life steal can't be underestimated. Wriggle's is an exceptional counterpick to other AD champions when using Lee, a cheap way to get a fantastic package with tons of utility. With Wriggle's, it's not just about jungle speed, but also Dragon and Baron speed. This -does- matter. It matters a lot. Wriggle's makes you beefier during early ganks as well, which cannot be underestimated.

Now to express a concern about Tiamats. Your math is skewed in regards to the mana regen aspect. Tiamat only offers 5 mana per 5, and you mention the need to buy 2 meki pendants for some reason, when you'd really only need a faerie charm or 1 meki pendant to match what Tiamat offers. It's irrelevant to this guide however, seeing as that aspect is entirely wasted on Lee.

Now I will turn the same example you offered in your guide, back onto you.

I can buy a regrowth pendant, and a B.F. sword. Or I can buy Tiamat, I will spend almost the same, and get 5 AD less, and no splash with the sword/pendant. However, much like you noted in regards to Wriggle's, those stats like splash and 5 more AD might seem wasted, so I can go with the sword/pendant which will build into an earlier Warmogg's and a Blood Thirster or an I.E.

The same argument you make to refute the logic of purchasing items like Wriggle's can be used in reference to Tiamat. 15 more gold and 5 less AD is almost a null point. Just thought I'd point that out.

That having been said, I'd be interested to see what -one- Tiamat looked like. I'd never build two, the second Tiamat in my mind should instead be something more like Last Whisper which will actually help you deal more effective damage.

In summary (TL;DR);

The items you downtalk should not be down-talked, they are considered his best items for a reason.

Your logic in down-talking them is hypocritical, in that you write Wriggle's off as an early game item, and then mention you should sell your Tiamats for end game, meaning that they too are early game items?

The build is not altogether bad (I will admit I'm very skeptical as to the functionality of Tiamats), but the points made for and against certain items was confusing and misleading.

=)

Cheers.