Decisions after getting invaded at your 2nd...

[quote=VexRoth]Question for all you jungling pros: This is happened to me twice that I can recall, once last night. First time was an enemy [[Rengar]]. Last night is was by an enemy [[Kha'zix]]. I was playing as [[Maokai]] who can get a little low starting Red or Blue depending on how good of a leash you get from your laners. I finished Blue Buff and then headed over to my wolves and started that camp, which is a little slow before you get [[Bami's Cinder]]/[[Enchantment: Cinderhulk]]. I did use a charge on [[Refillable Potion]] on my way to the wolves though I believe it was finished ticking by the time I started the camp. A wild [[Kha'zix]] shows up and auto Q's me for a good chunk of health and he smites the big wolf out from under me so I can't get health from it. I didn't think my laners were going to be able to help me in time so I [[Flash]]ed toward Mid lane and figured I would just go get my Red buff and I would simply concede [[Gromp]]. But damn if that Kha'zix didn't show up at my Red Buff and their Mid laner rotated on me too so I ended up dying. So my question is how should I have played this? Should I have simply gone back to base and healed up? I didn't have enough money to buy anything, but I'd rather have not donated the kill gold, so what to do?[/quote]

[quote=VexRoth]Thinking about this out loud. I still had my [[Smite]] and a strong suspicion that [[Kha'zix]] was looking to harass me even more especially with my [[Flash]] down. Maokai clears things reasonably quickly as long as there are bushes nearby that allow him to empower his saplings. I was only at level 2 and didn't get all the experience from the wolf camp. So only have two abilities. Options: 1) Back and heal up. 2) Clear the raptor camp which is pretty quick for Maokai 3) Invade and take [[Kha'zix]]'s Blue Buff* *since he was probably looking for me on my Red side jungle. Probably the riskiest choice with potentially the highest reward under the circumstances. Kha'zix could simply go to the Blue side of his jungle and find you there or catch you on the way out if you didn't B to base from there. Option 2 would let you heal up especially if you used [[Smite]] on the big raptor, though that would mean Smite would be down for contesting for red buff. On the other hand you could load the bush beside Red Buff up with saplings to try and deter [[Kha'zix]] from bothering you. Of course some junglers don't have the saplings as options and I'm really looking for a more general approach to the situation.[/quote]

[quote=Lugignaf]From a strictly Maokai perspective, you could've gone Buff->Buff. Just sayin. :P Anyway, safe strats are probably your best bet. As any jungler, you probably have [[Warding totem]] for your first levels, so you can place that out to avoid getting surprised. Use the blast cone over by blue if you go Red->Blue. Other options are go to scuttle, since that's a fair amount of healing from talisman or machette. But if you're feeling real spooked, just base. The gold, especially if it's first blood gold, is not worth it on top of being out of your jungle for your death timer+walking back to wherever you think a camp is up.[/quote]

[quote=VexRoth][quote=Lugignaf]From a strictly Maokai perspective, you could've gone Buff->Buff. Just sayin. :P Anyway, safe strats are probably your best bet. As any jungler, you probably have [[Warding totem]] for your first levels, so you can place that out to avoid getting surprised. Use the blast cone over by blue if you go Red->Blue. Other options are go to scuttle, since that's a fair amount of healing from talisman or machette. But if you're feeling real spooked, just base. The gold, especially if it's first blood gold, is not worth it on top of being out of your jungle for your death timer+walking back to wherever you think a camp is up.[/quote] Thank you for taking the time to put forth some consideration to my question. :-) Eh, I don't get invaded very often at my 2nd camp. But since I've had that play happen to me twice now, I figured I should think through/get advice on how to deal with it. I almost always go Red > Wolves > Blue or Blue > Wolves > Red. The standard gank clear/the clear that lets me be in position to ward for my laners and counter gank if necessary. But yeah, buff to buff is an option if I'm worried about an invade. Point. Thank you. That is definitely worthwhile to consider verses [[Lee Sin]] who I have already had problems with as Maokai or really any tank jungler that isn't as mobile or as good of a duelest. Sometimes I have my [[Warding Totem]] by that point and sometimes I don't. If none of my laners covers the opposite side of my jungle I will often walk over and drop my warding totem at my buff so I can have a chance of noticing it being cheesed. Hadn't considered going to [[Rift Scuttler]]. As in Blue > Scuttle? Or Blue > Wolves (Oh, crap I need some health because of nasty nasty [[Kha'zix]]) > Blue side scuttle?[/quote]

[quote=Lugignaf]Usually, I do scuttle right after the buff. It's a quick decision sometimes, but it allows you to get info about what the enemy is doing, since it allows you to pace the river, and ward in specific spots. It also doesn't do damage, so using it as sustain is very important. As an aside, it's safer to do against skillshot reliant champions. Doing it against a Kha is a lot riskier than doing it against Lee, just because of [[Sonic Wave]] vs [[Taste their Fear]].[/quote]

[quote=VexRoth][quote=Lugignaf]Usually, I do scuttle right after the buff. It's a quick decision sometimes, but it allows you to get info about what the enemy is doing, since it allows you to pace the river, and ward in specific spots. It also doesn't do damage, so using it as sustain is very important. As an aside, it's safer to do against skillshot reliant champions. Doing it against a Kha is a lot riskier than doing it against Lee, just because of [[Sonic Wave]] vs [[Taste their Fear]].[/quote] So if against an invasive jungler you might go Blue Buff > Scuttle to heal up before taking on the rest of your jungle clear?[/quote]

[quote=Lugignaf][quote=VexRoth][quote=Lugignaf]Usually, I do scuttle right after the buff. It's a quick decision sometimes, but it allows you to get info about what the enemy is doing, since it allows you to pace the river, and ward in specific spots. It also doesn't do damage, so using it as sustain is very important. As an aside, it's safer to do against skillshot reliant champions. Doing it against a Kha is a lot riskier than doing it against Lee, just because of [[Sonic Wave]] vs [[Taste their Fear]].[/quote] So if against an invasive jungler you might go Blue Buff > Scuttle to heal up before taking on the rest of your jungle clear?[/quote] Sort of, yes. The heal is great, as is the vision. But if you get caught doing it, you could easily be hosed unless mid/sidelane comes to help. Since most junglers have sustain skills, doing scuttle lets them happen more, in addition to whatever they're getting form machete or talisman. And in the end, it all comes down to preference. There's plenty of times where I could have/should have gone to wolves/raptors instead of scuttle, so I can gank at level 3 faster. But I didn't, so I lost out. It's really up to you.[/quote]