Counter Picking Question

[quote=samgoeslol]id bet you alot that if you see hotshots jax running vs rainmans jarvan, hothsoht would win or anyways any great jax vs a great jarvan. playing jax vs jarvan is hard but jaxs skillset is just perfect for countering any tanky deeps thats why top tier players call jax the counter to the bruiser meta T_T greez sam[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]I don't agree Sam. The Rain Man is a very passive laner, and would let HotShot farm. That's why he would lose. Now, if you managed to get an aggresive laner like Reginald to learn Jarvan, he would do much better against HotShot's Jax. The point is that Jax loses when he trades with Jarvan early, but he wins later when geared. You have to use that window to win the lane, and pull ahead, or you never come back and Jax owns you for the rest of the game.[/quote]

[quote=Temzilla]Actually, Jax loses trades with Jarvan all game long as long as Jarvan keeps up in farm, and goes full DPS. Jax will win by mid game just by building sustain, no matter how hard you shut him down in the first 5-6 levels. The difference between Jax and Jarvan is that Jarvan builds tank, and jax builds damage. If TRM were playing a character like Mordekaiser, who rushes damage, then I'm pretty sure he would fare well against HSGG's Jax. With the comment about Jax countering the Tanky DPS meta, there is only one reason for that. [[Equipment Mastery]] His passive lets him build up his sustained damage to insane levels, and still be tanky enough to brawl against the tanky dps fighter champions. People like Mordekaiser, Morgana, and most ultra range mages are a good lane counter to jax i feel. (Mordekaiser has his shield, Morgana has her shield/snare, and both of them are very good at farming.) You NEED someone who is going to have pretty high damage, or has some way to negate Jax's, or stop jax from farming. The long range mages are pretty good at preventing him from farming, where high sustain characters that build damage are good at nullifying his harass. I would list Udyr as a counter to Jax, but if Udyr ever attacks Jax, he loses pretty hard because of counter strike.[/quote]

[quote=Searz]Swain kinda counters Jax. Swain eats most melee champions.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]Udyr can beat Jax by powering Tiger strike, dotting him and just walking away. All you have to do to beat Jax in laning phase is out damage him when he tries to burst you, and then not letting him farm. Any champion who can do that will win the lane against Jax. You have mentioned Jarv builds Tank.. I generally try to get a Trinity Force fairly early, so that's probably the main source of confusion here. With trinity Force, I don't just stop beating Jax... Lol. I keep beating him all game if I can double his CS (Sounds kinda ridiculous, but honestly, it's entirely feasible as long as you don't get ganked every 3 seconds.) If I am against a Jax I usually go Trinity -> Atma's to keep my damage up and to get my defense's going as well. Jarvan isn't a champion to be underestimated in laning phase just because Hotshot hit 250 CS mark with Jax and crushed a few tournament matches. If Jarvan had that kind of CS he'd have done very well too. I mean, he makes Cho Gath look like one of the best tanks in the game, and that's really just because he farms so incredibly well that he becomes invincible. He's also got a very sound mastery of that champion. But if you ask me I wouldn't say Cho Gath is that amazing, it's the player using him. Granted, Jax is strong, and he beats a lot of lanes, I'm just not convinced he's as strong as people are making him out to be. I think he was chosen for his AoE stuns, his passive, and his MR boosting ult personally. Dodge and mobility are a bonus, and the fact that he can 1v1 is staple as well. He's a good counter to what people are doing right now, and that makes him strong, but he's not this OP monster you can't beat in lane with any champion. My experience has always been that Jax can't trade with Jarvan in laning phase. Perhaps High Elo play style works differently. I'm sure that the junglers have way more to do with the dynamic of laning play at the 2k level.[/quote]

[quote=Temzilla][quote=DuffTime] Udyr can beat Jax by powering Tiger strike, dotting him and just walking away. All you have to do to beat Jax in laning phase is out damage him when he tries to burst you, and then not letting him farm. Any champion who can do that will win the lane against Jax. You have mentioned Jarv builds Tank.. I generally try to get a Trinity Force fairly early, so that's probably the main source of confusion here. With trinity Force, I don't just stop beating Jax... Lol. I keep beating him all game if I can double his CS (Sounds kinda ridiculous, but honestly, it's entirely feasible as long as you don't get ganked every 3 seconds.) If I am against a Jax I usually go Trinity -> Atma's to keep my damage up and to get my defense's going as well. Jarvan isn't a champion to be underestimated in laning phase just because Hotshot hit 250 CS mark with Jax and crushed a few tournament matches. If Jarvan had that kind of CS he'd have done very well too. I mean, he makes Cho Gath look like one of the best tanks in the game, and that's really just because he farms so incredibly well that he becomes invincible. He's also got a very sound mastery of that champion. But if you ask me I wouldn't say Cho Gath is that amazing, it's the player using him. Granted, Jax is strong, and he beats a lot of lanes, I'm just not convinced he's as strong as people are making him out to be. I think he was chosen for his AoE stuns, his passive, and his MR boosting ult personally. Dodge and mobility are a bonus, and the fact that he can 1v1 is staple as well. He's a good counter to what people are doing right now, and that makes him strong, but he's not this OP monster you can't beat in lane with any champion. My experience has always been that Jax can't trade with Jarvan in laning phase. Perhaps High Elo play style works differently. I'm sure that the junglers have way more to do with the dynamic of laning play at the 2k level. [/quote] I always forget about Tiger dot, and even double tiger XD haha. That's a good point about Jax not being unbeatable in lane, but being a counter to the meta.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]People make champions like Jax stronger by being afraid of him, when you really have to grab him by the throat and stop him before he gets out of control. Orianna is probably the hardest Jax counter in game right now. You just have to have BALLS and use your passive correctly. Also proper use of your shield is basically a free win. EDIT; For anyone reading. You know you're vrs Jax top lane? Pick someone who can either take no damage when he goes to burst, or someone who can damage him more than he damages you. Champions who can (Potentially) beat Jax are Orianna, Morde, Galio, Jarvan, Rumble, Udyr etc. Anyone with a shield has an automatic plus. When Jax jumps at you at level two, DON'T RUN AWAY. God. Do not. Attack him back, and land your spells on him. Most Jax's just jump, empower, and walk away. So when he does this, you need to tag him with as much damage as he tagged you. If you can't do that, you're going to lose the lane and it's gonna be painful. Now that Jax's early game is getting nerfed by a rather mind numbingly large amount, he'll be easier than ever to punish for attempting to trade like that, and will be forced to passively farm until he's geared.[/quote]

[quote=Temzilla][quote=DuffTime]EDIT; For anyone reading. You know you're vrs Jax top lane? Pick someone who can either take no damage when he goes to burst, or someone who can damage him more than he damages you. Champions who can (Potentially) beat Jax are Orianna, Morde, Galio, Jarvan, Rumble, Udyr etc. Anyone with a shield has an automatic plus. When Jax jumps at you at level two, DON'T RUN AWAY. God. Do not. Attack him back, and land your spells on him. Most Jax's just jump, empower, and walk away. So when he does this, you need to tag him with as much damage as he tagged you. If you can't do that, you're going to lose the lane and it's gonna be painful. Now that Jax's early game is getting nerfed by a rather mind numbingly large amount, he'll be easier than ever to punish for attempting to trade like that, and will be forced to passively farm until he's geared. [/quote] I was playing mordekaiser the last time i went against solo top jax haha. I killed him at level 2 because he got way too cocky and jumped on me when he had about 3 bars of health. I then destroyed him the rest of the game, his First Blood let me go back and get a ward for blue, and we ganked his jungler at blue.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime][quote=Temzilla] I was playing mordekaiser the last time i went against solo top jax haha. I killed him at level 2 because he got way too cocky and jumped on me when he had about 3 bars of health. I then destroyed him the rest of the game, his First Blood let me go back and get a ward for blue, and we ganked his jungler at blue. [/quote] ;D I find lots of Jax players don't even know why JAx wins lanes and just pick him because he's "OP" and jump at you expecting to win. With Morde, to beat Jax in laning phase, all you have to do is have shield when you engage Jax and you'll win over time. Don't engage until you have shield, and disengage when it runs out, and you've got it. It perfectly counter's Jax's style of laning. Nice gank at blue :3[/quote]

[quote=Temzilla][quote=DuffTime] Nice gank at blue :3 [/quote] Even better, it was Amumu. I agree though, some people pick champions because they are "op" not realizing they have pretty significant counters.[/quote]