Doran's Ring start on ADC Tristana

[quote=tehAsian]Enemy bot lane shoves to your tower and you miss CS because you don't have enough AD. You can't out push because your only AoE is your escape and you don't have the AD to push and kill minions with auto-attacks to proc [[explosive shot]]'s passive.[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD]There is no reason to think 15 AP will beat 10 AD. Consider a scaling of 1.0. That means that two autoattacks (2x10) will already be stronger. Additionally, the health on Doran's Blade is higher and the passive is also a lot stronger. Finally, you have no magic penetration and getting it in runes isn't worth it so that means you it won't scale as well as the AD either.[/quote]

[quote=Youngs][quote=tehAsian] Enemy bot lane shoves to your tower and you miss CS because you don't have enough AD. You can't out push because your only AoE is your escape and you don't have the AD to push and kill minions with auto-attacks to proc [[explosive shot]]'s passive. [/quote] This is a very big exaggeration. Couldn't the same be said when you swap AD reds for armor pen reds?[/quote]

[quote=Encross][quote=Youngs] [quote=tehAsian] Enemy bot lane shoves to your tower and you miss CS because you don't have enough AD. You can't out push because your only AoE is your escape and you don't have the AD to push and kill minions with auto-attacks to proc [[explosive shot]]'s passive. [/quote] This is a very big exaggeration. Couldn't the same be said when you swap AD reds for armor pen reds? [/quote] Nobody swaps AD reds for Armor Pen. That's precisely the point.[/quote]

[quote=Youngs][quote=Encross] [quote=Youngs] [quote=tehAsian] Enemy bot lane shoves to your tower and you miss CS because you don't have enough AD. You can't out push because your only AoE is your escape and you don't have the AD to push and kill minions with auto-attacks to proc [[explosive shot]]'s passive. [/quote] This is a very big exaggeration. Couldn't the same be said when you swap AD reds for armor pen reds? [/quote] Nobody swaps AD reds for Armor Pen. That's precisely the point. [/quote] That's not true. You're saying this on mobafire where the 2 top rated AD Carry guides run armor pen marks. More importantly you may have forgotten about [url=http://imgur.com/EmQvZQQ]this[/url]. People swap flat AD out for these regularly.[/quote]

[quote=tehAsian]Using mobafire guides for examples, lol. Have you even heard about their reputation? LS Quints are exactly the reason why your idea doesn't work. With 3 LS Quints you don't even have enough AD to last hit at tower past level 3. This is WITH a Dorans Blade start. Without one, you can't even last hit at 1. If you choose to run AD Quints and Marks then start with a Ring, you lack sustain that two potions would not cover. Also, as you've said taking damage while trading is easy, so you're going to get bullied out of lane because the other AD will have 10 more AD ON TOP OF life steal healing them for about 15 each hit. Healing anything you throw at them is easy because you started Ring and they can just keep auto attacking minions, shove to your tower, and harass there while you miss farm.[/quote]

[quote=Mooninites][quote=Youngs] [quote=Encross] [quote=Youngs] [quote=tehAsian] Enemy bot lane shoves to your tower and you miss CS because you don't have enough AD. You can't out push because your only AoE is your escape and you don't have the AD to push and kill minions with auto-attacks to proc [[explosive shot]]'s passive. [/quote] This is a very big exaggeration. Couldn't the same be said when you swap AD reds for armor pen reds? [/quote] Nobody swaps AD reds for Armor Pen. That's precisely the point. [/quote] That's not true. You're saying this on mobafire where the 2 top rated AD Carry guides run armor pen marks. More importantly you may have forgotten about [url=http://imgur.com/EmQvZQQ]this[/url]. People swap flat AD out for these regularly. [/quote] Armor Pen isn't that good on Tristana. Her base damage isn't that good and she has no AD scalings. Aside from that last hitting is fairly difficult with her early on because of [[Explosive Shot]] so I can't see armor pen being that good. Anyway, dual pen reds might actually be better than flat ArPen on Trist to make use of damage from her W, E, and R.[/quote]

[quote=Youngs][url=http://www.solomid.net/guides.php?g=54847-xwildturtle-ezreal-build-guide]Would this be a better example?[/url] Here's a quote from the guide. [quote] I like taking these set of runes because armor pen really helps your damage. Armor pen is a lot better than physical damage runes late game. You guys are probably wondering why aren't people using it. To explain this, you will need to understand that physical damage on champions like Graves, Caitlyn, and Varus require AD runes to be relevant early game. This is because they have skills like buckshot and piltover peacemaker. They are able to push the lane and pressure. However, its harder to push the lane with armor pen runes. [/quote] This quote is especially relevant here because turtle's reasoning is that without skills like [[BUCKSHOT]] and [[PILTOVER PEACEMAKER]] AD isn't worth as much early game so there are more viable options available. I'm not trying to argue that armor pen is the way to go on [[TRISTANA]], I'm just trying to prove that having 10 less AD isn't going to make you miss half of your CS, and therefore actually having these will compensate for your lack of a [[DORAN'S BLADE]]. [quote=tehAsian]other AD will have 10 more AD ON TOP OF life steal healing them for about 15 each hit. [/quote] You're assuming I take AD quints and the enemy AD takes lifesteal quints so how will the other AD have 10 more AD than me? In this case they wouldn't even be able to push harder than me. It's one or the other, they can't both 10 more AD and 6% lifesteal. It's also unfair of you to say that the other AD heals 15 per hit. Do the math for a level 6 caitlyn. The amount she heals for about half of that. [[DORAN'S BLADE]] actually doesn't make the difference between getting the last hit at tower or not. I'll assume that this [[TRISTANA]] has lifesteal quints, because you're saying that she will have a hard time in lane without them. By the time you get to level 3 the tower has 162 AD. For caster minions (280 HP), you'll have to autoattack them twice. [[DORAN'S BLADE]] won't make it so that you can get the CS by only hitting them once. For melee minions (445 HP), you will need atleast 60.5 AD to get the CS only hitting it twice. Without [[DORAN'S BLADE]] or attack damage quints, [[TRISTANA]] still achieves this at level 3 with AD reds. [[TRISTANA]] isn't that bad at pushing lane. The extra 4 damage you get on [[EXPLOSIVE SHOT]] if you take [[DORAN'S RING]] can actually add up because there's enough minions in lane for atleast one to be low most of the time.[/quote]

[quote=RaNuD][quote=GrandmasterD] There is no reason to think 15 AP will beat 10 AD. Consider a scaling of 1.0. That means that two autoattacks (2x10) will already be stronger. Additionally, the health on Doran's Blade is higher and the passive is also a lot stronger. Finally, you have no magic penetration and getting it in runes isn't worth it so that means you it won't scale as well as the AD either. [/quote] While you guys were busy with sarcasm and lifesteal quints, GrandmasterD summed it up pretty well in my opinion. And in the end, it comes down to: are you able to pull [icon=Explosive Shot] without any retaliation? Since the answer is most definately [i]no[/i](in my experience, at least), there are indeed very few resons to get a Ring. I might consider ring with 200% scalings, though.[/quote]

[quote=tehAsian][quote=Youngs] [url=http://www.solomid.net/guides.php?g=54847-xwildturtle-ezreal-build-guide]Would this be a better example?[/url] Here's a quote from the guide. [quote] I like taking these set of runes because armor pen really helps your damage. Armor pen is a lot better than physical damage runes late game. You guys are probably wondering why aren't people using it. To explain this, you will need to understand that physical damage on champions like Graves, Caitlyn, and Varus require AD runes to be relevant early game. This is because they have skills like buckshot and piltover peacemaker. They are able to push the lane and pressure. However, its harder to push the lane with armor pen runes. [/quote] [/quote] Blue Ezreal. Muramana proc, BoRK, Iceborn, Lizard Elder does not scale off bonus AD but instead penetration. Your argument is flawed. [quote] This quote is especially relevant here because turtle's reasoning is that without skills like [[BUCKSHOT]] and [[PILTOVER PEACEMAKER]] AD isn't worth as much early game so there are more viable options available. I'm not trying to argue that armor pen is the way to go on [[TRISTANA]], I'm just trying to prove that having 10 less AD isn't going to make you miss half of your CS, and therefore actually having these will compensate for your lack of a [[DORAN'S BLADE]]. [/quote] 10 less AD won't make you miss half your CS, but it'll make you miss a lot at tower. Every little bit counts, and if the people you play against have a brain they'll snowball off being even 20 CS up. [quote]You're assuming I take AD quints and the enemy AD takes lifesteal quints so how will the other AD have 10 more AD than me? In this case they wouldn't even be able to push harder than me. It's one or the other, they can't both 10 more AD and 6% lifesteal. It's also unfair of you to say that the other AD heals 15 per hit. Do the math for a level 6 caitlyn. The amount she heals for about half of that. [/quote] Your item: [[doran's ring]], 0 AD Their item: [[doran's blade]], 10 AD That's 10 right there. I don't assume you take AD Quints, I never did. I said even if you did, you won't be running life steal and you get shoved out of lane. I probably derped there, but my point remains the same: They have sustain and last hitting capability at tower, you have one or the other, or sometimes even neither. [quote] [[DORAN'S BLADE]] actually doesn't make the difference between getting the last hit at tower or not. I'll assume that this [[TRISTANA]] has lifesteal quints, because you're saying that she will have a hard time in lane without them. By the time you get to level 3 the tower has 162 AD. For caster minions (280 HP), you'll have to autoattack them twice. [[DORAN'S BLADE]] won't make it so that you can get the CS by only hitting them once. For melee minions (445 HP), you will need atleast 60.5 AD to get the CS only hitting it twice. Without [[DORAN'S BLADE]] or attack damage quints, [[TRISTANA]] still achieves this at level 3 with AD reds. [[TRISTANA]] isn't that bad at pushing lane. The extra 4 damage you get on [[EXPLOSIVE SHOT]] if you take [[DORAN'S RING]] can actually add up because there's enough minions in lane for atleast one to be low most of the time. [/quote] It does. Hitting a minion once to get the last hit at tower is a HUGE difference compared to having to hit it twice. You're also forgetting minion health scales up past 3 and it'll be more and more difficult to last hit.[/quote]