Who counters Trundle in the jungle?

[quote=Xenasis][quote=DuffTime] [quote=Xenasis] Please present a counter argument as to why it isn't without just saying "TRUNDLE DUELS WELL LOL" like you have done before. [/quote] I never once said this. You are fantastically ignorant. [/quote] [quote=DuffTime] It's almost impossible to shut Trundle down enough to the point where Trundle can't contribute anything to a fight, because his most valueable attributes are debuffs and AoE slows. His damage and dueling capabilities are good enough (And that -can- be shut down to a certain extent), but are not the focus of his kit. [/quote] You are fantastically forgetful.[/quote]

[quote=Xenasis]Well I'm leaving it here, where I should have left it before. If you want to make one more, final, insulting post, go ahead. Nobody will feel any better of you but yourself. You aren't the almighty enigma DuffTime and you can't say things as verbosely as possible and make it look like you had reasoning. Anyway - I'm done. You've not won, but damn, you've not listened to a single thing I've said in this thread, and responded to just as little.[/quote]

[quote=Temzilla][quote=Xenasis] [quote=Temzilla] How do you counter trundle jungle. Pick a good jungler, like nocturne or lee sin. /thread. [/quote] Are you implying Trundle is a bad jungler? He's definitely better than Nocturne, in general. Yes, Duff, despite the fact Nocturne has better ganks. [/quote] I'm implying that Lee Sin and Nocturne beat Trundle. He might be able to defend his jungle, but he sure as hell can't counter jungle either of them. He can't gank as much/as hard as either of them, and he scales worse into late game than either of them. Lee Sin and Noct are simply too strong to compare them to trundle. Why would you pick Trundle over those two?[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime][quote=Xenasis] Please present a counter argument as to why it isn't without just saying "TRUNDLE DUELS WELL LOL" like you have done before. [/quote] [quote=DuffTime] I never once said this. You are fantastically ignorant. [/quote] And your amazing rebuttal is this? [quote=DuffTime] It's almost impossible to shut Trundle down enough to the point where Trundle can't contribute anything to a fight, because his most valueable attributes are debuffs and AoE slows. His damage and dueling capabilities are good enough (And that -can- be shut down to a certain extent), but are not the focus of his kit. [/quote] [quote=Xenasis] You are fantastically forgetful. [/quote] You quote me just to show that I said he can duel? HOLY SHIT you are on another level. You literally quoted me just to show that I said he can duel well, even though that has NOTHING to do with the argument we were having. You said; [quote=Xenasis] I bet you're one of these players that tries to counterjungle more if they see an obscure pick? It is completely worth it. Counterpicking in the jungle is as valid as elsewhere. You pick to the situation like any other lane. Countering play styles is important for any champion. Please present a counter argument as to why it isn't without just saying "TRUNDLE DUELS WELL LOL" like you have done before. [/quote] And you quote me saying; [quote=DuffTime] It's almost impossible to shut Trundle down enough to the point where Trundle can't contribute anything to a fight, because his most valueable attributes are debuffs and AoE slows. His damage and dueling capabilities are good enough (And that -can- be shut down to a certain extent), but are not the focus of his kit. [/quote] As if that means ANYTHING LOL. That's not even in the proper context, I was posting that because I was saying IT ISN'T WORTH SHUTTING DOWN HIS DUELING CAPABILITIES, BECAUSE HE STILL HAS DEBUFFS AND AOE SLOWS, AND THOSE ARE THE PRIMARY FOCUS OF HIS KIT. WHOOPS. You got me bub, I did in fact say trundle can duel well, in a completely different context, talking about a completely different thing. LOL. You're unbelievable. MY post was saying I never used that as my reasoning in a counter argument. In fact, I used it OPPOSITE of a counter argument, I was saying it's NOT worth it to shut down his dueling capabilities. You post that as if that was my direct response a point you'd just made. Oh my good lord you are awful at this whole logical discussion thing. Anyway, you're a giant waste of my time. I don't think I should keep talking because your ability to process logic and understand points being made is so minute that it's borderline unfathomable.[/quote]

[quote=JMastiff]Xen you forgot Poland.[/quote]

[quote=example1013]How do you counter a control jungler by ganking? Control junglers clear super-fast, making them easily available to counter-gank and gank. HOWEVER, because of their clear-times, they don't lose out on all their gold if they fail to secure a kill, because they still get camps. So as long as they keep their lanes from falling behind, control jungler still wins. How do you counter a control jungler by picking a hard counter-jungler? Once again, they clear camps super-fast, so you're not going to deny them everything, and their stronger lane presence (because they're free to gank often) means their lanes snowball harder, can get more aggressive, and are capable of supporting against the counter-jungle, while the enemy lanes play passive, fall behind, and can't help the jungler to control objectives as well. In both cases control junglers usually win because they can't be shut down by a single playstyle. And because the enemy jungler is going to be less effective supporting lanes, even though the control jungler may fall behind overall running to gank (because he's counter-jungled) or counter-gank (because the enemy jungler is ganking), in both cases the other team loses out more because the gank jungler fails due to counter-ganks and the counter-jungler's lanes fail due to not getting ganks.[/quote]

[quote=Xenasis][quote=example1013] How do you counter a control jungler by ganking? Control junglers clear super-fast, making them easily available to counter-gank and gank. HOWEVER, because of their clear-times, they don't lose out on all their gold if they fail to gank, because they still get camps. [/quote] That's not a control jungler, that would be a farm jungler or just any jungler that clears fast. Nunu is an example of a control jungler that clears really slowly.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime][quote=example1013] In both cases control junglers usually win because they can't be shut down by a single playstyle. And because the enemy jungler is going to be less effective supporting lanes, even though the control jungler may fall behind overall running to gank (because he's counter-jungled) or counter-gank (because the enemy jungler is ganking), in both cases the other team loses out more because the gank jungler fails due to counter-ganks and the counter-jungler's lanes fail due to not getting ganks. [/quote] Which is why Shyvanna and Udyr are cool. Clear fast and either counterjungle or gank quickly, and go back to clearing. Steal a buff if the chance comes.[/quote]

[quote=example1013][quote=Xenasis] [quote=example1013] How do you counter a control jungler by ganking? Control junglers clear super-fast, making them easily available to counter-gank and gank. HOWEVER, because of their clear-times, they don't lose out on all their gold if they fail to gank, because they still get camps. [/quote] That's not a control jungler, that would be a farm jungler or just any jungler that clears fast. Nunu is an example of a control jungler that clears really slowly. [/quote] Okay, but so then what you have is, these fast-clearing junglers just do more for their team than a slow-clearing jungler, regardless of how effective that jungler is. Being a dueling jungler doesn't matter if you can't support lanes, being a ganking jungler doesn't matter if you can't duel, and being a dueling or ganking jungler means jack shit if you can't farm. I think the debate here got really convoluted. It's not an argument over what the jungler does in the jungle, it's an argument over how that affects the jungler's support of the lane. A "control" jungler who's good at securing buffs won't help if he can't clear fast enough to force the lanes to respect his presence on the map. A gank jungler can't enforce his map presence if the enemy jungler is always there to counter-gank because the enemy jungler can clear the camps and be free to roam. A farm jungler doesn't worry about either of that. I read this whole thing as farm > control somewhat because farm doesn't worry about missing a couple clears, since they take a camp in 5 seconds anyways and the camps spawn really fast. Even losing a buff or two isn't going to completely rape the farm jungler or his team, because the farm jungler focuses on grabbing whatever gold he can The only important things to secure from counter-jungling are buffs, and if the lanes are strong, healthy, and able to be aggressive, they can help with that a lot better than a passive, cautious lane. I think another part of an issue in this fight is that the farm jungler's team needs good lane support to win the match-up. If we're talking about Shyvana vs. Trundle and Shyvana's team watches Trundle walk through the tri-bush and just sits in lane without coming to help, yeah, Trundle's going to do his job because he's got the better 1v1 match-up. But if the lanes come to help, Trundle is fucked because his lanes can't get to Shyvana's red as fast as Shyvana's lanes can. So basically, the theorycrafting answer is that Shyvana will end up doing more for a competent team, but Trundle will be more capable of fucking up Shyvana's game (and really most jungler's games) if he's allowed to run wild in her jungle. At least, that's what I'm taking out of this. I think you both have valid points, but are coming at this from different angles and are arguing because you're not talking about the same thing.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime][quote=example1013] Duff's saying [/quote] Don't bring me back into this discussion please. I didn't say anything more than what I've already said. I don't associate my name with any of the claims you just made for me :p[/quote]