Zac support theorycraft

[quote=Xiaowiriamu]Hello Mobafire, I'm partially inactive now, and since I can remember have been theory-crafting odd champions in odd roles - such as Annie support in season 1 and 2, Hecarim top and poppy support in season 3 and 4. I just thought I'll introduce my new theory-crafting idea, which is, Zac support. I really want to do a guide, but I don't have the time to make an amazing guide full of pictures and detailed analysis of how it works. So what better way to post it in this sub-forum. So here goes [b]Zac support build:[/b] [b]Skillset[/b] -> Grab your E skill first (the jumpy thing :D) -> Then Q,W respectively at level 2 and 3. -> Max E -> R at lv 6, 11 and 16. [b]Items[/b] -> Start with relic -> Slowly build face of mountain (although not necessary) -> Grab CDR boots (spam them E's and R's :D) -> Sightstone -> AP Offtank items (Rylais, liandry's torment...etc) [b]Masteries[/b] -> Standard 9/21/0 [b]Runes[/b] -> Armor seals and CDR glyphs are core -> Magic pene / flat health for marks -> AP / Health / Armor for quints [b]Summoner spells[/b] -> Flash; Ignite; Exhaust; Heal; Barrier -> I usually go for Flash and ignite [b]Laning phase[/b] -> Proc the relic shield where necessary -> Sponge damage where possible like normal supports do -> For engaging, or disengaging, use your E in a bush or where enemy cannot see you -> For 2v2 fights, use E efficiently (try get the cc on their adc or both the support and adc) spam W, and slow adc with Q [b]Benefits of Zac support[/b] -> Hard to kill -> Offers great CC -> Decent damage output -> Amazing ganker, and roamer with new E skill having more range -> Great for disengaging 3v2 ganks, and baiting dives with his passive -> Great for engaging, or engaging with your jungler -> Game changing engages, and scales nicely into late -> Great co-op with Mordekaiser, Jinx and Graves [b]Disadvantages of zac support[/b] -> Does poorly against specific ad carries = Ezreal; kalista -> Intermediate to master and play efficiently -> People will assume you're trolling Notes: -> 30 games in both ranked and normal, 60% win ratio, with approx. 5/5/14 KDA. (Won lane majority of games) So there you have it! Go try it out, and have fun, and tell me how it went :)[/quote]

[quote=Ekki]I'm skeptic about CDR boots, as the yellow ones would help a lot with roaming. They may very well work, so I'll believe in you there. On runes, you should try armor marks and health seals instead of the other way around. Armor marks are nearly as good as seals, whereas health marks suck. If you go mpen marks you could go armor quints and health seals (again, better than the other way around). Are 9/21/0 masteries standard for tanky supports? I'm currently running either 0/14/16 or 0/16/14 for them, but I wouldn't know what's standard now as I'm not really into watching pro players. Lastly, I would consider maxing Q instead of E depending on matchups (if you can't all-in, you better have a good Q for disengage).[/quote]

[quote=Xiaowiriamu][quote=Ekki]I'm skeptic about CDR boots, as the yellow ones would help a lot with roaming. They may very well work, so I'll believe in you there. On runes, you should try armor marks and health seals instead of the other way around. Armor marks are nearly as good as seals, whereas health marks suck. If you go mpen marks you could go armor quints and health seals (again, better than the other way around). Are 9/21/0 masteries standard for tanky supports? I'm currently running either 0/14/16 or 0/16/14 for them, but I wouldn't know what's standard now as I'm not really into watching pro players. Lastly, I would consider maxing Q instead of E depending on matchups (if you can't all-in, you better have a good Q for disengage).[/quote] Hey Ekki, thanks for the response You're right about the runes! I have found that I haven't really strayed away from using Magic pene marks, armor seals, cdr glyphs and armor quints yet, I feel that is a balanced and strong rune setup: however, need to test more on what you've suggested - thanks. As for masteries, I've tried different variations, including going a little more damage (21 in offense), and just found that 9/21/0 is just better. The 9 in offence provides stable and consistent damage for my early game, and cool-down reduction which is really what makes this particular theory crafting idea so good. Most of what is in the utility tree is useless for Zac in my opinion, but i haven't really indulged myself into testing it completely. Lastly, I am going to have to debate with that point. I found maxing E provides me with the potentially to do so much more, not only in damage and cooldowns but also range to secure kills, save my adc, save myself ...etc. However in certain matchups you're probably right that maxing Q is better. Especially against Ezreal, but not perfected that issue as of yet, hopefully in next coming months I will have found a solution to those pesky match-ups that seemingly make Zac support not as great.[/quote]

[quote=Ekki][quote=Xiaowiriamu]You're right about the runes! I have found that I haven't really strayed away from using Magic pene marks, armor seals, cdr glyphs and armor quints yet, I feel that is a balanced and strong rune setup: however, need to test more on what you've suggested - thanks. As for masteries, I've tried different variations, including going a little more damage (21 in offense), and just found that 9/21/0 is just better. The 9 in offence provides stable and consistent damage for my early game, and cool-down reduction which is really what makes this particular theory crafting idea so good. Most of what is in the utility tree is useless for Zac in my opinion, but i haven't really indulged myself into testing it completely.[/quote]To be honest, your runes doesn't seem to be bad that way. I just wanted to point out the suboptimal combinations because I'm a runes nazi. On masteries, I figured that if you run CDR glyphs and CDR boots you'd want to avoid the CDR mastery, to not go over the 40% CDR limit (especially since FotM gives further 10% CDR and most support items do too). I guess you could stay at 35%/37.5% if you built AP offtank items without CDR, so it may be OK your way. I also like the GPS masteries too much :P [quote=Xiaowiriamu]Lastly, I am going to have to debate with that point. I found maxing E provides me with the potentially to do so much more, not only in damage and cooldowns but also range to secure kills, save my adc, save myself ...etc. However in certain matchups you're probably right that maxing Q is better. Especially against Ezreal, but not perfected that issue as of yet, hopefully in next coming months I will have found a solution to those pesky match-ups that seemingly make Zac support not as great.[/quote]I trust you when you say E is better, but I think it was worth pointing out that maxing Q is an option (against Graves/Leona?). If you can work it out for most of them it would be safe to say max E always though.[/quote]

[quote=Joxuu]The problem with [[zac]] support would be sustain as your spells cost hp and the passive blobs are easy to counter. It's also a must to hit [[zac]]'s E or you will just end up in a bad spot. The E is way too easy to just dodge or counter with small cc and the E being countered, [[zac]] has really little pressure in lane. It can work but I can't see it being really efficient. Probably going to give this a try as a fellow [[zac]] player before dooming the idea.[/quote]

[quote=Xiaowiriamu][quote=Joxuu]The problem with [[zac]] support would be sustain as your spells cost hp and the passive blobs are easy to counter. It's also a must to hit [[zac]]'s E or you will just end up in a bad spot. The E is way too easy to just dodge or counter with small cc and the E being countered, [[zac]] has really little pressure in lane. It can work but I can't see it being really efficient. Probably going to give this a try as a fellow [[zac]] player before dooming the idea.[/quote] I can't speak for everyone, but nevertheless I've not had any issues with sustain, i usually try to keep my distance in a way in which i favour not only my adc in surviving or being easily engaged upon, but also in a way that i don't get harassed too much, but i can see where you're coming from. If you play too aggressively or lack the general mechanics, you will find Zac support lacking the sustain to do well at botlane. Passive blobs are also easy to counter, but generally you don't want to be spamming your spells all the time, only when you engage, which makes the enemy more focused on you or your adc than your blobs :) As for Zac's E, you're correct, missing that will cause you to lose some hp, die, or force a fight you don't want to generally be in (since you missed your E), although it could work out in favour. Typically, i don't fail my E, but i've had some experience with Zac in the past to encompass how to effectively use it. So what i'm saying is, with practice you will find your not failing your E as much. Verses specific champions pulling off your E can be difficult, but is one of the main reasons you want to try catch players off-guard, stand in an area where the enemy has no vision and hopefully surprise them, and pray they lack the reflexes, sometimes i have burnt a flash, or Ezreals escape, and just walked off unharmed. Since we're stacking CDR, missing an E once in a while isn't going to be catastrophic. As for Zac's E being easily counted, thats true, but its usually too late for most supports to react, e.g. Leona, Annie, Alistar, Blitz, etc.. It is mainly Thresh and Janna you want to watch out for, and thats just all variables, depends how fast their reactions are etc. I've found playing most my games at Diamond that I don't generally get my E counted that easily. In regards Zac pressure, you're right, he lacks pressure in relation to supports like Janna and Lulu, but with the right adc, and a good adc...you can pressure reasonably well. I've found in most my matchups we're actually pressuring the botlane fairly well. Zac with mordekaiser is also handsomely op, alongside Zac and Lucian. It's all variables though, but you're correct theoretically and on paper that Zac has no pressure. But I like to think Zac does provide some level of threat, or pressure. By handing in an unwarded bush or being SS on the map, who knows when a Zac E will arrive, so Zac support at least puts the enemy on their toes for a potential Zac flying across their screen. Bit of a wall of text, but thanks for the response and I hope you find Zac support interesting when you try him out. :) If its of any value, we can play a few games together[/quote]

[quote=DBlakes30]Just like every other champion in the game, Zac has the champions hes strong against and the champions he is weak against. And as a support you don't want to just pick someone your going to counter in your lane, you want to counter people you'll see in other lanes as well. I jungled Zac a lot in the previous season. I found myself almost instalocking him in when the enemy team had a Jinx, Ashe, or Kog'Maw. But I'd also jump on him for champions like Syndra, Brand, Veigar, Cassiopeia, Xerath, and other highly immobile champs. Just remember your sustain is greater the lower health you are. Your spells take away %current health and your blobs return %max health. A lot of people seem to forget that.[/quote]