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[quote=NicknameMy]The problem of [[Nautilus]] is, why pick someone who can lock enemies down forever when you can play someone who can lock enemies down long enough and actually can kill enemies in that time.[/quote]

[quote=Ellodere][quote=NicknameMy]The problem of Nautilus is, why pick someone who can lock enemies down forever when you can play someone who can lock enemies down long enough and actually can kill enemies in that time.[/quote] Nautilus

 To begin with, we need to find out his damage, his shield strength (W) and how long he can lock down an opponent. 


[spoiler=Nautilus attack damage]His attack damage at level 6 will be:
57.544 + n x 3.3 = 57.544 + 6 x 3.3 = 57.544 + 19.8 = 77.344 Attack damage at level 6 
His attack damage at level 18 will be:
57.544 + n x 3.3 = 57.544 + 18 x 3.3 = 57.544 + 59.4 = 116,944 Attack damage at level 18[/spoiler]
 Now we need to find out his Attack speed to really see how much damage he could pull off in about as much time as he can stun and slow somebody 
[spoiler=Nautilus attack speed]His attack speed at level 6 will be:
0.613 + (0.613 / 100) x n = 0.613 + 0.00613 x 6 = 0.613 + 0,03678 = 0,64978 (~0.65) Attack speed at level 6

His attack speed at level 18 will be:
0.613 + (0.613 / 100) x n = 0.613 + 0.00613 x 18 = 0.613 + 0.11034 = 0.72334 (~0.72)
Attack speed at level 18[/spoiler]


 Now, we need to take the most common skill point usage, and calculate how many seconds nautilus can stun someone with his full combo.

3 points in W + 1 point in Q + 1 point in E + 1 point in R (his ult).
 Let’s check up on what this gives him and what this allows him to do.
 [spoiler=Titan’s Wrath (W)] 3 points in Titan’s Wrath (W):
 Costs 80 mana(doesn’t change through adding more skillpoints) 
Cooldown 18 seconds(doesn’t change through adding more skillpoints) 
His default shield strength will be 75 HP 
+ 12% of his maximum health added to the shield’s HP 

Deals 70 Magic damage to the target and the ones around it in a 175 range radius, the first hit of his basic attack while having Titan’s Wrath will deal:

77.344 (the level 6 damage of his autoattacks combined with his passive) + 35 = 102.344 damage. 116.944 (the level 18 damage of his autoattacks combined with his passive) + 35 = 151.944 damage

But that’s only when he HITS the Titan’s Wrath’s passive, but the second half of the damage will be applied to the target after 1 second regardless of how much attack speed nautilus has (that’s partly why attack speed nautilus isn’t AS great as tanky nautilus (see what I did there with the ”AS”? Because AS stands for Attack Speed....eh forget it)).

So in total, he will deal 137.344(level 6)/186.944 (level 18) damage to the target through the course of 2 seconds with just his basic attacks and his Titan’s Wrath (W).[/spoiler]

 [spoiler=Dredge Line (Q)]1 point in Dredge Line (Q):
 Costs 60 mana at 1 point

Cooldown 18 seconds at 1 point

The strength of his Q will be 60 magic damage

His Dredge Line will stun the hooked target for ~1 (counting from the point of which the target has been stopped in it’s movement by your hook and to the point where you chest bump him and he lands on the ground and is able to walk again freely.[/spoiler] 

[spoiler=Riptide (E)] 1 point in Riptide (E): Costs 60 mana at 1 point Cooldown 10(doesn’t change through adding more skillpoints)

His Riptide has a range of 600 that bursts outwards from him in 3 total waves, it takes ~1.5 seconds for the whole riptide to finish and it will apply a complete slow (both the movement speed and the attack speed of the enemy who gets hit by these waves) of 30% movement speed decreased which will last for 2 seconds after that the enemy gets hit by a wave.

The nautilus does his Q and E right after the stun of his Q has finished which is his first combo when he ganks a lane most of the time. Let’s say the enemy will pass through and get hit by all 3 of these waves. The enemy will receive a total of:

1.5 (the seconds for the whole riptide to finish (each wave procs the slow and so the slow will be RESET for each wave)) + 2 seconds (the amount of time it takes for the slow to wear off) = 3.5 seconds slow [/spoiler]
 [spoiler=Depth Charge (R ult)] 1 Point in Depth Charge (R ult): Costs 100 mana(doesn’t change through adding more skillpoints)

Cooldown 140 seconds

His Depth Charge fires a shockwave that knocks up both the targeted enemy and the enemies that is in Depth Charge’s path for 0.5 seconds and the main target, 1 second.

This ability is a big boy weapon, it deals 125 magic damage to those it passes through at 1 skill point and it deals 200 magic damage to the main target. 
(OBS! The stun and the knockup are both simultaneously ongoing for the duration of half the whole duration (0.5 seconds) and the other half is just a stun. So technically the knockup is only for 0.5 seconds but the stun is for 1 seconds. Just to clarify that to those who don’t know). [/spoiler]
 So how do we optimize this skill order so that we get the most stun out of it?

Let’s start with the usual combo:
 [spoiler=Normal unoptimized combo:]

The fight begins with you coming into lane as jungle nautilus and Q’ing the enemy and then you E, W and lastly you ult the enemy and then the ally toplane will most likely get a kill if you succeed.

[spoiler=Optimized combo:]

Here when we gank, we will face a pretty common situation:

 (First act of ganking)The guy hinds in the bushes/behind minions or he tries and stay away from you so he has the potential of dodging your and decreasing the amount of stun he will receive from you.

(Second act of ganking)We need to figure out exactly where he is and we need to use our 1 time Q efficiently when we gank, that applies to all junglers ([[Amumu]] [[Elise]] e.t.c...) with skillshots that have long cooldowns. 


(Third act of ganking)That’s why we walk up to the enemy and either ward the brush he is hiding in or just intercept his walking path by going in a parallel direction to his direction, just don’t go directly behind him and play ”Catch me if you can!”.

(Fourth act of ganking)Then when you are right in front of him and have a clear shot, you Q and right when you Q you wanna W and let the stun from your Q finish. 
(Fifth act of ganking)RIGHT after the Q’s stun has finished you wanna Autoattack <Look in the spoiler ”< >” for more info about his W and autoattacks> to apply your passive to him to stun him for some more seconds, then E when he is still in the middle, because even if he flashes, he will still have been slowed and probably will be hit by the third wave because: [spoiler=Reasons for fifth act^^] * Flash has a range of 400 while your E has a range of 600.

 * His movement speed will be slowed for 2 seconds while your E only takes 1.5 seconds to hit that 600 range spot, so basically you will still be slowed for 0.5 seconds more which is gonna be reset because of that the third wave WILL most likely hit you and turn that 0.5 seconds into a 2 seconds slow again.
[/spoiler] 
(Final act of ganking)Now that you have applied the slow, you Ult him and knock him up. 
[spoiler=< >] <What you can do is autoattack once without the W, activate W and RESET the autoattack timer, but it’s not recommended if the enemy has flash or any escape ability because you need to apply your stuns all directly after each other> [/spoiler] 
How much stun did we just get off through the course of a gank?
 [spoiler=Amount of stun and slow]
1 second ((stun)Q) + 0.75 second ((stun)Passive) + ~3.5 seconds ((slow)E) + 1 second ((stun)R ult)= 2.75 seconds ((stun) Total) + 3.5 seconds ((slow) Total).

3.5 seconds slow and a 2.75 seconds stun, that’s a lot of CC in my opinion, becuase by the time Nautilus finished his combo, the ally toplaner was already shooting flaming biscuits (ranged) or smacking the enemy with his justice candybar (melee) to death.
[/spoiler]
 How much damage did we do?
 [spoiler=Total damage]
60(Q) + 137.344 (level 6 auto attack damage plus his W) + ~90 (His E damage considering the enemy got hit by the first wave, flashed then got hit by the third wave which dealed half the damage of the first wave(first wave 60 dmg, the second and third 30 dmg) + 200 = 350 + 137.344 = 487,344 (~487 damage)

That’s not even whole damage that nautilus could have done, by the time he had ulted, he could have gotten in ANOTHER autoattack with the W passive which would result in a total of ~624 damage. That’s about half of many champions hp’s at level 6, incredible amounts of damage and the rest of the damage that will be left will be dealt by the ally laner. [/spoiler]


 This is when the attack speed comes into play, 0.65 attack speed is the total attack speed nautilus has at level 6.

Let’s say that fight goes on more for about 4 seconds or so before he is dead, how many autoattacks can you get off?

 0.65 x 5 = ~3 attack’s after each other
Keep in mind though that we have to count in that our W is almost on CD, so about 1-2 autoattacks will not have the passive. How much damage did those 3 autoattacks deal? [spoiler=3 autoattacks]
137.344 + 137.344 + 77.344 = 352,032 damage if you have the W on those 2 first attacks 137.344 + 77.344 + 77.344 = 292,032 damage if you have the W on only 1 of your attacks

So basically, we end up at: 
624 (counting all damage you could potentially get using all your abilities and autoattacks efficiently) + 352,032 = 976,032 
624 + 292,032 = 916,032
[/spoiler]

 How much movement speed is 30%? [spoiler=The riptide slow] Let’s say the base movement speed is 360 for the XXX enemy champion, and he doesn’t have any boots yet or any movement speed from any of his runes or masteries (I will exclude that because I don’t want this to be too long), the amount of movement speed that will be slowed will be:

360 x 0.7= 252 360 - 252 = 72 movement speed decreased.

 Jesus christ, that kind of slow for 3.5 seconds is incredible!
[/spoiler]


 Anyway, to conclude against your statement of ”why pick champions who can lock down someone forever when you can pick someone who can lock down someone long enough to kill them”, you are wrong. Nautilus can deal so much damage if played efficiently, even at early levels, and I’m not even going to go through level 7 and above because we already know from these numbers that he deals really a hell of a ton of damage even level 6.[/quote]

[quote=Lugignaf]I feel like you're padding the math with a lot of fluff words. That just makes it confusing to read and hard to get your point across imo. Naut's damage [i]really[/i] isn't that much. All he does it have a lot of CC and passive damage from [[Titan's wrath]] and the lowcooldown of [[Riptide]]. As well as [[sunfire cape]] if you choose to get it. But, that's only in teamfights really. For ganks, he does far less damage, and less CC technically since you only have one shot for Q and E, unless they're trying to fight. And if they try and fight, they probably have their midlane or jungler who [b]will[/b] beat you and your team in a 2v2 or 3v3 because, hey, you [b]really[/b] don't do damage. Only two of the CC's actually prevent the target from using skills, and one of them only slows their running ([[riptide]]) and can still be dashed/blinked away from. Anyway, I like the Naut buffs they did. And [[Zz'rot portal]] is pretty okay on him since it gives him a lot of things he likes.[/quote]

[quote=Ellodere][quote=Lugignaf]I feel like you're padding the math with a lot of fluff words. That just makes it confusing to read and hard to get your point across imo. Naut's damage [i]really[/i] isn't that much. All he does it have a lot of CC and passive damage from [[Titan's wrath]] and the lowcooldown of [[Riptide]]. As well as [[sunfire cape]] if you choose to get it. But, that's only in teamfights really. For ganks, he does far less damage, and less CC technically since you only have one shot for Q and E, unless they're trying to fight. And if they try and fight, they probably have their midlane or jungler who [b]will[/b] beat you and your team in a 2v2 or 3v3 because, hey, you [b]really[/b] don't do damage. Only two of the CC's actually prevent the target from using skills, and one of them only slows their running ([[riptide]]) and can still be dashed/blinked away from. Anyway, I like the Naut buffs they did. And [[Zz'rot portal]] is pretty okay on him since it gives him a lot of things he likes.[/quote] You have to keep in mind though, all the math I did were correct. All this damage that you would get in that kind of situation I created, would definitely be the same amount of damage. But you have to keep in mind, I excluded that nautilus even bought items or a matter of fact that the enemy had any armor or magic resist. The right term when talking about the armor and magic resist of an opponent and how much damage (in %)you will do compared to the maximum health he has, is the % gets decreased, because of that his magic resist/armor gives him efficent hp against respective types of damages, but the damage of nautilus is NOT decreased, it's still the same as I mentioned above. You also go beside the situation I created when you say: "unless they're trying to fight. And if they try and fight, they probably have their midlane or jungler who [b]will[/b] beat you and your team in a 2v2 or 3v3 because, hey, you [b]really[/b] don't do damage." You do realize, even though my situation that I created maybe isn't so realistic, you should still adress that particular situation instead of creating a new one with the enemy midlaner or jungler coming into play, because that is a whole different story than what I told which has it's own respective proper decisions and play. But you are right that the enemy jungler/midlaner plus the enemy toplaner [b]could[/b] beat nautilus and the ally toplaner, I emphasize "could" when I say this because just like I mentioned, I excluded how much gold he would have gotten to the point where he was level 6, which goes even deeper than what I've spoken of in my explanation. You have to understand, he would have a lot of hp, combined with his runes and masteries plus the new smite items that give extra hp plus his W. Hell, I even excluded the fact that nautilus even had a blue or red smite item (which is a bit unlikely, but some would go blue smite, even though I think the purple smite item is so so much better for the simple fact that it gives nautilus a lot of options). You should know your counter argument, even though it has some truth, is flawed because of these small things you say that aren't actually true (for example that you said that nautilus does "less" damage against champions is wrong, it's only the difference in % when comparing his damage in terms of how much health you can take with an enemy champions maximum hp combined with the efficient hp of both armor and magic resist that you can call "less") and you go even further than that by saying that "All he does it have a lot of CC and passive damage from [[Titan's wrath]] and the lowcooldown of [[Riptide]]. As well as [[sunfire cape]] if you choose to get it.". If I had added the passive damage of sunfire cape to the equation of how much damage nautilus would do at the end of the gank, you would see an even greater number of damage, believe me (I'm not sure nautilus would even have sunfire cape at level 6, I need to check that out!) Besides, let's not go into teamfights, because I said this earlier, at that time nautilus will be even stronger than he already is at level 6(which I think you and I could agree on, considering that nautilus might buy abyssal scepter in case he needs to deal more damage, which will further increase his damage output thanks to the passive of the item). You even said "Only two of the CC's actually prevent the target from using skills, and one of them only slows their running ([[riptide]]) and can still be dashed/blinked away from.", so may I ask you this: Have you even read what I said in my explanation that actually SHOWED you why it wouldn't matter so much if the enemy flashed? Look in my explanation where I through 6 total acts explain a situation that is very common and I also took the possibility of the enemy champion flashing after that the first few stuns (Q and your passive) has been done. Again I just wanna say, after that nautilus has finished his first set of the whole combo, he will E immediatly after his passive has been proc'd, that will slow down the enemy so much that when he flashes, it's still just 400 range and nautilus's E catches up to him and applies another slow to that enemy which allows nautilus to ult easily. Sure, nautilus isn't a one man army that can kill people just by doing his combo, that's not what nautilus does, nautilus uses his CC, pressures the enemy laner so hard that the ally can just walk up to him and kill him while nautilus stuns him. But to say that nautilus really doesn't do any damage is naive and frankly it hurts me that you say that because I've given you enough evidence in my explanation to show you that he does damage, just compare that amount of damage with champions at level 6. In fact, just look at an adc champion and you will see this is over 50% of adc's maximum health at level 6 (even factoring in masteries, runes and items that an adc normally buys that gives health (which is probably just the doran's blade at that point in the game, which doesn't even give that much health compared to the adc's hp in %)). You know, just because my explanation has "fluff" words that make my point seem unclear to you, that doesn't mean you shouldn't read what I said thoroughly and go on from that with what you have to argue against it. I'm sorry my explanation wasn't so clear to you, I really am. I will try and work on that and if you could please enlighten me of what I should do to make it more clear, just tell me.[/quote]

[quote=Lugignaf]Trust me, I read it multiple times. In fact, I'm reading it again as I type this. If you're just seeing how much damage someone does in a straight up 1v1, and people don't fight back, it's pretty easy to make them look like they deal a lot of damage. I'm not trying to imply that Naut's got a sunfire at level 6. That's more than ridiculous. But if you're going to give level 18 stats, I'm going to assume he's also going to be fighting at level 18, fully itemed and such. Hence saying that Naut has passive damage with his low cooldowns and AoE as well as Sunfire. Secondly, the reason I added in a midlaner/jungler to the equation, is that naut loses the damage from his shield if it goes down. Either if it's broken or if it drops from it timing out. Now in ganks, since that is his most leveled skill, it's going to be the majority of his damage in ganks. Now, I'm going to give an ADC gank scenario. The ADC is Ezreal with 21/9/0 masteries, he's level 6 and has Armor seals, and MR per level glyphs. Ezreal has 1070 health, ~39 magic resist and ~45 armor. That's Phage and a Doran's Blade. Now, for a "perfect" gank scenario, everyone except Ezreal has gone back, so it's just Naut, Ezreal and some minions in bot lane. Maybe no minions though. That makes it easier to hit [[dredge line]] on him. Now for the maths. All rounded to the nearest whole number. Dredge hits for 60 damage(reduced to ~43), The [[staggering blow]] auto attack hits for 71+38=109 damage(reduced to ~75). Auto-reset for 71(reduced to ~49) and 35(reduced to ~25) per hit, per second. Riptide hits twice for 90 damage(reduced to ~65 damage). And then we ult, for another 200 damage(reduced to 144). Now, let's be generous and assume that Naut gets 3 more autos off, waiting for the full DoT from his shield to tick. So that's 99 per auto for an extra 297 damage, which takes 6 seconds to do. SO, NOW THE FINAL DAMAGE TOTAL! 43+75+99(shield-reset damage)+65+144+297= 723 total damage over maybe about 8 seconds. That is about 100 damage a second. I have just realized that I made [b]literally[/b] the same calculations you made, except I calculated in armor and MR, and in also a semi-realistic game scenario. But also in a much more concise way. Now if we compare him to other junglers, more damage oriented ones like Xin or Jarvan, he does comparable damage, in a much longer period of time. He's also arguably a lot tankier to make up for that, so he can actually do that damage, but I digress.[/quote]

[quote=Ellodere][quote=Lugignaf]Trust me, I read it multiple times. In fact, I'm reading it again as I type this. If you're just seeing how much damage someone does in a straight up 1v1, and people don't fight back, it's pretty easy to make them look like they deal a lot of damage. I'm not trying to imply that Naut's got a sunfire at level 6. That's more than ridiculous. But if you're going to give level 18 stats, I'm going to assume he's also going to be fighting at level 18, fully itemed and such. Hence saying that Naut has passive damage with his low cooldowns and AoE as well as Sunfire. Secondly, the reason I added in a midlaner/jungler to the equation, is that naut loses the damage from his shield if it goes down. Either if it's broken or if it drops from it timing out. Now in ganks, since that is his most leveled skill, it's going to be the majority of his damage in ganks. Now, I'm going to give an ADC gank scenario. The ADC is Ezreal with 21/9/0 masteries, he's level 6 and has Armor seals, and MR per level glyphs. Ezreal has 1070 health, ~39 magic resist and ~45 armor. That's Phage and a Doran's Blade. Now, for a "perfect" gank scenario, everyone except Ezreal has gone back, so it's just Naut, Ezreal and some minions in bot lane. Maybe no minions though. That makes it easier to hit [[dredge line]] on him. Now for the maths. All rounded to the nearest whole number. Dredge hits for 60 damage(reduced to ~43), The [[staggering blow]] auto attack hits for 71+38=109 damage(reduced to ~75). Auto-reset for 71(reduced to ~49) and 35(reduced to ~25) per hit, per second. Riptide hits twice for 90 damage(reduced to ~65 damage). And then we ult, for another 200 damage(reduced to 144). Now, let's be generous and assume that Naut gets 3 more autos off, waiting for the full DoT from his shield to tick. So that's 99 per auto for an extra 297 damage, which takes 6 seconds to do. SO, NOW THE FINAL DAMAGE TOTAL! 43+75+99(shield-reset damage)+65+144+297= 723 total damage over maybe about 8 seconds. That is about 100 damage a second. I have just realized that I made [b]literally[/b] the same calculations you made, except I calculated in armor and MR, and in also a semi-realistic game scenario. But also in a much more concise way. Now if we compare him to other junglers, more damage oriented ones like Xin or Jarvan, he does comparable damage, in a much longer period of time. He's also arguably a lot tankier to make up for that, so he can actually do that damage, but I digress.[/quote] Yeah, that's basically the same thing I did. Even after that you counted in all this, I still see that 723 is more than half of what Ezreal's hp is, even though maybe that wouldn't be a kill, it still is pretty significant. I did calculate in the armor and magic resist as efficient hp, but you did it through how much damage is reduced by these respective resistances, which lead to the same result really. You are also right about what you say that I didn't count in if they had fought back in my calculations, but it would decrease his damage by 70 if the enemy had broken his shield before nautilus ulted (from the scenario I made), and he would also have done even more less on those 3 auto's I counted in (imagining that he cockblocks the enemy toplane and walks backwards while autoattacking him which is a standard trick for melee's). Really, I'm impressed by how you did it. I didn't count in the possibility of the enemy fighting back (to perhaps mitigate some of the damage from his shield's passive, which is frankly a genius idea you showed me. I never thought of it that way, because I was simply imagining that the enemy just wants to escape, not fight). One of the things I think I left out as well, was that nautilus shield would have more strength to it because I didn't calculate how much the shield would increase in HP if I calculated those 12 % of his maximum hp at level 6 and also items. So basically I did a quick calculaion and got up to 1101,07 hp with 5x health seals and 3 health quints plus masteries. So the shield would have: 75 + (1101,07 / 100 x 12) = 75 + 132,1284 = 207,1284 (~207 hp) Hmmm, so basically his shield would have to take roughly around 3-4 autoattacks depending on the other person's AD and attackspeed. I think that if I had added items that give health stats, that number would increase. So, to conclude, if the opponent had fought nautilus and tried to get his shield down, he would have failed because first of all: The opponent has to stand still, interrupting his momentum just so he can autoattack nautilus these many times (even counting in attack moving, he would have been slowing down his escape significantly). Second of all, even if he did succeed, the ally toplaner would have had time to get to him and together with nautilus kill him. Idk though, that's really only if nautilus used the rune page I think fits him (which is built around his shield's strength scaling with hp), it would have been different depending on what runes nautilus uses, maybe he player runs something like 3 movement speed quints or something like that. I think he does fairly good damage even without his W passive, but without his shield he wouldn't be doing AS much damage as he would with it, so the W is very significant, but nautilus could still pull off a gank (he just needs to cc the opponent long enough for the ally laner to get to him). You are a most formidable discussion partner, I think we can put this to rest now, considering we've come to a point where we kind of did the same thing (the calculation you and I made), and that we agree on most of what each of us have said. I don't think there's not much else to say, I believe nautilus is a strong jungler, he just needs a chance to shine.[/quote]