Some Constructive Criticism Por Favor

[quote=Ixtellor]I thought it was proven that the most efficient jungle route is Krugs, Raptors, Wolves, Golem, recall. Then Krugs, Red, Raptors, Wolves, Blue, Golem. You an hit level 6 at the 6min mark. Just thought I would mention it here since so many people were critical of your jungle route. Also, I have seen challenger/master players go Krugs Raptors Red, so that they could smite both Krugs and Red for the health.[/quote]

[quote=Ekki]It depends on what you prioritize. Krugs Raptors Red makes you backtrack a bit but you get to level 3 faster (since you don't have to go to the other side of the jungle), which is great if you want to gank at level 3. Krugs Red Blue Scuttle Gromp Wolves works to secure the buffs before getting to level 4 etc. As long as you know why you're doing that route (and you know the pros and cons of the alternatives) it's ok.[/quote]

[quote=Joxuu]That was just an example of efficient jungling. I don't mean you start with a jungle route raptors > red > Krugs. The point was try to jungle while minimazing the time spent between jungle camps and ganks. Do your first clear like you usually do. When second red spawns and you think you can gank bot lane, you can do raptors > red > krugs > gank bot > recall > wolves > blue > Gromp > gank top/mid[/quote]

[quote=VexRoth][quote=Joxuu]That was just an example of efficient jungling. I don't mean you start with a jungle route raptors > red > Krugs. The point was try to jungle while minimazing the time spent between jungle camps and ganks. Do your first clear like you usually do. When second red spawns and you think you can gank bot lane, you can do raptors > red > krugs > gank bot > recall > wolves > blue > Gromp > gank top/mid[/quote] Thanks for the detailed explanation, Joxuu. I get you and I will definitely work on adding the idea of farming efficiently while looking for potential ganks into my repertoire. Muchas gracias! :-)[/quote]

[quote=VexRoth][quote=Ixtellor]I thought it was proven that the most efficient jungle route is Krugs, Raptors, Wolves, Golem, recall. Then Krugs, Red, Raptors, Wolves, Blue, Golem. You an hit level 6 at the 6min mark. Just thought I would mention it here since so many people were critical of your jungle route. Also, I have seen challenger/master players go Krugs Raptors Red, so that they could smite both Krugs and Red for the health.[/quote] The first route you mentioned is the most efficient for hitting level 6. You just leave your buffs up, which means they can be stolen, which would cut heavily into into your leveling efficiency and your gank efficiency. What I take from Joxuu and Ekki is three part: 1) Know why you are doing what your are doing (AKA have a plan) 2) That plan should be efficient 3) Weigh risks vs. rewards Many routes and actions are viable, however many of them are not efficient or pose more risk than reward. E.g. TF might be immobile and hence worth trying to gank at level 3, but you have to remember that he has that damn Gold card, [[Flash]], and maybe [[Ghost]] and if he is good with his card selection and paying attention and you or your laner have no CC then the gank might not pan out and as a result your could lose half of your jungle if their jungler is paying attention. If however you have [[Jarvan IV]] + [[Twisted Fate]] and their Mid laner is immobile then a level 3 gank Mid might be just the thing to start your team on the path to victory.[/quote]

[quote=Ixtellor]I'm not high enough level, but haven't pros figured out the efficiency of getting a flash from the enemy? I'm curious because it seems like if you go from red/raports to Mid gank --- and get a flash --- I think that would be a successful gank, because then you should be able to go right on jungling and its not enough time to actually steal your camps. Also the enemy jungler might counter gank pro-actively and then its a 'win' for sure if all that happens is you get an enemy flash. Question: How do you quantify getting an enemy to waste a summoner spell versus lost farm time?[/quote]

[quote=VexRoth][quote=Ixtellor]I'm not high enough level, but haven't pros figured out the efficiency of getting a flash from the enemy? I'm curious because it seems like if you go from red/raports to Mid gank --- and get a flash --- I think that would be a successful gank, because then you should be able to go right on jungling and its not enough time to actually steal your camps. Also the enemy jungler might counter gank pro-actively and then its a 'win' for sure if all that happens is you get an enemy flash. Question: How do you quantify getting an enemy to waste a summoner spell versus lost farm time?[/quote] Joxuu or Ekki may have a different take on this, but I'll say the following. Jungle camps are worth 62-76 gold and 300-303 XP not counting the scuttle crab. So 431 gold + 1803 XP for a full jungle clear. That gets you which ever part of the jungle item you didn’t get plus a [[Health Potion]] and leave you with 31 gold. It also puts you at level 5. (this is not counting the gold you accumulate over that period of game time for just being in the game). Blown summoner’s are going to be variable. If you blow a champion’s [[Flash]] by the use of say an ability and your time and nothing else happens for the remainder of the laning phase as a result, you are out your resource cost, time (which could have been spent doing other things), and you have shown up on the mini-map so all of their laners know where you are taking pressure off all of the other lanes. It might be worth it however if their champion has high kill pressure on your team's champion if the opposing enemy has [[Flash]] then you have 5 minutes of time where you laner has less to worry about. The thing about ganks is that you can’t guarantee that they are going to go according to plan. They may spot you and if so they may call in a counter gank. They may out play you and kill you or your laner or both of you. If you take sufficient damage or die then you can’t go back into your jungle, in which case it is free to be stripped while you are back at the fountain. As an example. One game I ganked Mid early. My laner ended up dying during the gank so i figured I would hold his lane until he go back otherwise we would have lost a bunch of minions to our tower. However, while I was doing that their jungler entered our jungle a took half of it.[/quote]

[quote=Vynertje][quote=Ixtellor]I'm not high enough level, but haven't pros figured out the efficiency of getting a flash from the enemy? I'm curious because it seems like if you go from red/raports to Mid gank --- and get a flash --- I think that would be a successful gank, because then you should be able to go right on jungling and its not enough time to actually steal your camps. Also the enemy jungler might counter gank pro-actively and then its a 'win' for sure if all that happens is you get an enemy flash. Question: How do you quantify getting an enemy to waste a summoner spell versus lost farm time?[/quote] Quite sure pros have figured it out but their answer differs from solo queue. To summarize what I consider as their answer, this is what blowing a summoner spell is good for: 1. A chance to get a kill within the next five minutes, therefore not only giving gold to your team but also denying the enemy xp and gold and giving the opportunity to take an objective 2. This results in the enemy having to play more passively or risk dying, this has a certain value: pressure 3. Generally with blowing a flash you also get some damage down on your enemy laner, this may have some value as he's forced to hang back more or base Problem is that league isn't mathematics, the use of this depends for each situation. Blowing flash for certain champions and certain lanes is more valuable for others, but generally it is 100% worth it to blow a flash at the expense of a few (not more than 2-3) jungle camps[/quote]

[quote=Ixtellor][quote=VexRoth] As an example. One game I ganked Mid early. My laner ended up dying during the gank so i figured I would hold his lane until he go back otherwise we would have lost a bunch of minions to our tower. However, while I was doing that their jungler entered our jungle a took half of it.[/quote] Correct me if I am wrong, but that should be a neutral event. If you pushed the wave in to the tower, to deny the enemy mid cs and reset the lane then: 1) you should have gained all the gold exp from the push and 2) denied the enemy mid additional cs and gold[/quote]

[quote=VexRoth][quote=Ixtellor][quote=VexRoth] As an example. One game I ganked Mid early. My laner ended up dying during the gank so i figured I would hold his lane until he go back otherwise we would have lost a bunch of minions to our tower. However, while I was doing that their jungler entered our jungle a took half of it.[/quote] Correct me if I am wrong, but that should be a neutral event. If you pushed the wave in to the tower, to deny the enemy mid cs and reset the lane then: 1) you should have gained all the gold exp from the push and 2) denied the enemy mid additional cs and gold[/quote] It would be if you can push the wave into the enemy tower. IIRC I was playing a melee champion and their laner was ranged and still alive and healthy enough to stay in lane (it went that badly XD). On top of everything else I took a metric crapton of harass while simply trying to hold the wave off the tower.[/quote]