Depends on your lane.
If you can win just take 2-3 Doran's blade's and go banana's.
If you can't, cloth armor 5 pots and wriggle's/2 doran's blades's will do the trick.
I find myself getting Wriggle's in most games, if you don't have to do that, get a bloodthirster instead.
Then, get PD, and then either a GA or an IE depending on the game.
Get the next item afterwards and finish with either another PD or a BT or a Madred's, or something of your liking.
If you can win just take 2-3 Doran's blade's and go banana's.
If you can't, cloth armor 5 pots and wriggle's/2 doran's blades's will do the trick.
I find myself getting Wriggle's in most games, if you don't have to do that, get a bloodthirster instead.
Then, get PD, and then either a GA or an IE depending on the game.
Get the next item afterwards and finish with either another PD or a BT or a Madred's, or something of your liking.
http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/duffs-336706
Come hang out when I'm streaming! http://www.twitch.tv/dufftime
ExamplePrime
<Member>
<Member>
Vayne is still stupidly strong. And maxing her W first just seems to make the most sense.
It gives such good lane harrass. And forces people to have to run or engage, because her W is basically another tumble when leveled so Tumbling and proccing W is like being hit by 3 auto attacks at once. Its not nice.
It gives such good lane harrass. And forces people to have to run or engage, because her W is basically another tumble when leveled so Tumbling and proccing W is like being hit by 3 auto attacks at once. Its not nice.
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I play games, I write stories. And I make youtube videos that are way to long.
Yeap, you're doing it right bud.
http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/duffs-336706
Come hang out when I'm streaming! http://www.twitch.tv/dufftime
DividableTower
<Member>
<Member>
Wow, your arguments all got absolutely crushed. Way to be sheep, good **** thinking on your feet Dufftime referencing the only thing that could ever change the mind of a majority: Tournament wins.
Majority is not always correct guys, think for yourselves. Just because it's comfortable doesn't mean it's the best.
Majority is not always correct guys, think for yourselves. Just because it's comfortable doesn't mean it's the best.
Crows foot
<Member>
<Member>
There still have been no numerical or logical argument against levelling w first...
If you for some reason want to follow my ranked journey to gold, you can do it Here.
I am against asking for rep, only rep me if you think I contributed well or said something wise.
I am against asking for rep, only rep me if you think I contributed well or said something wise.
Yes there have, in other threads of the same subject.
From a strictly mathematical perspective, SB has a much higher potential damage output. It does depend on your attack speed, so it's a bit difficult to directly compare the damage outputs between the skills. However, the plus is that with more attack speed, SB becomes far and away the superior choice.
If your target has 700 or 800 HP (You can get that very quickly. By the time a carry has 1-2 Doran's blade's they are generally in that ballpark...) then the skill is already doing comparable damage to a fully ranked E if you can simply get the procs off 2 times. If you can get the procs off 3 times then the damage is far superior.
Example on an 800 HP target, with rank 5 SB (Keep in mind, it's not uncommon for your target to have 900 HP or more, and the more HP they have, the more potential damage you have.);
(60[flat]+64[%HP]) = 124 Damage per proc.
So, depending on your level of attack speed by this time, you've got 124 damage every 2-3 seconds.
When comparing that to the damage bonus of maxing tumble, there's no comparison. SB completely outclasses the damage increase. Tumble would only be maxed for utility, which is a decision I don't agree with. I personally believe you forfeit map "Presence" if you aren't dealing the most damage you can at all phases. It takes pressure off the bot lane, your opponents feel safe and in control. Their jungler doesn't need to worry about bot, so it free's up their jungler to move around as he pleases instead of forcing him to baby sit lanes. It allows the opposing team to more readily contest dragons because they aren't scared of your damage, and reduces your dragon speed. Anyway, these are my reasons for Damage > Utility in the lane phase.
When comparing to Condemn there's a lot of factors to be considered.
One factor, condemn applies a silver bolt's proc. In using Condemn, you are stacking your Silver bolts as well. So you are working towards your SB damage anyway.
Second factor, Getting 3 consecutive hits off on a target is extremely easy. An aware opponent is still going to have a hard time dealing with this. Using your 3 hit procs as zone control correctly can in many lanes be an effective method to deny farm and control the lane.
Why? Because they know if they come up to last hit, they're probably gonna get chunked for free. It sounds trivial, but free damage is better than damage at a cost. Silver bolts has no cooldown, has no mana cost, it's always ready to deal damage.
Comparing damage;
Condemn, guaranteed 185. potential for 2x 185, = 370 (Goes through resistances)
1 proc of SB; 124 (Using previous example) 2x proc 248 (More than initial damage of Condemn, less than nail into a wall with condemn.) 3x proc, 372, which is almost exactly the same amount of damage as Condemn. 4x procs, 496 damage, etc.
If you can get 3 attacks off in 2-3 seconds, you can comfortably land 3-4 procs of Silver Bolts in the same amount of time that Condemn is on it's 12 second cooldown.
So all mechanics aside, speaking in terms of purely theoretical damage output, Silver bolts in on par or superior to landing condemn into a wall.
Keep in mind as your attack speed goes up, and you start to pick up zerkers, a zeal maybe, a PD, it's as if the "Cooldown" on the skill Silver Bolts is going down, so you'll be able to proc this skill maybe 5-6 times in the time span of using Condemn. So you're getting more effective return on your skilling order earlier as well, you get stronger faster and you'll stay strong all game
Over the course of a lane I feel that Silver bolts has much more easily facilitated practical application, and superior functional damage output.
This is why you hear a lot of players say, "Vayne's weak early and strong late," simply because they are doing it wrong. I'll be the first to tell you she's strong early and stays strong all game, if you play her with correctly controlled aggression, using the SB's skilling order.
From a strictly mathematical perspective, SB has a much higher potential damage output. It does depend on your attack speed, so it's a bit difficult to directly compare the damage outputs between the skills. However, the plus is that with more attack speed, SB becomes far and away the superior choice.
If your target has 700 or 800 HP (You can get that very quickly. By the time a carry has 1-2 Doran's blade's they are generally in that ballpark...) then the skill is already doing comparable damage to a fully ranked E if you can simply get the procs off 2 times. If you can get the procs off 3 times then the damage is far superior.
Example on an 800 HP target, with rank 5 SB (Keep in mind, it's not uncommon for your target to have 900 HP or more, and the more HP they have, the more potential damage you have.);
(60[flat]+64[%HP]) = 124 Damage per proc.
So, depending on your level of attack speed by this time, you've got 124 damage every 2-3 seconds.
When comparing that to the damage bonus of maxing tumble, there's no comparison. SB completely outclasses the damage increase. Tumble would only be maxed for utility, which is a decision I don't agree with. I personally believe you forfeit map "Presence" if you aren't dealing the most damage you can at all phases. It takes pressure off the bot lane, your opponents feel safe and in control. Their jungler doesn't need to worry about bot, so it free's up their jungler to move around as he pleases instead of forcing him to baby sit lanes. It allows the opposing team to more readily contest dragons because they aren't scared of your damage, and reduces your dragon speed. Anyway, these are my reasons for Damage > Utility in the lane phase.
When comparing to Condemn there's a lot of factors to be considered.
One factor, condemn applies a silver bolt's proc. In using Condemn, you are stacking your Silver bolts as well. So you are working towards your SB damage anyway.
Second factor, Getting 3 consecutive hits off on a target is extremely easy. An aware opponent is still going to have a hard time dealing with this. Using your 3 hit procs as zone control correctly can in many lanes be an effective method to deny farm and control the lane.
Why? Because they know if they come up to last hit, they're probably gonna get chunked for free. It sounds trivial, but free damage is better than damage at a cost. Silver bolts has no cooldown, has no mana cost, it's always ready to deal damage.
Comparing damage;
Condemn, guaranteed 185. potential for 2x 185, = 370 (Goes through resistances)
1 proc of SB; 124 (Using previous example) 2x proc 248 (More than initial damage of Condemn, less than nail into a wall with condemn.) 3x proc, 372, which is almost exactly the same amount of damage as Condemn. 4x procs, 496 damage, etc.
If you can get 3 attacks off in 2-3 seconds, you can comfortably land 3-4 procs of Silver Bolts in the same amount of time that Condemn is on it's 12 second cooldown.
So all mechanics aside, speaking in terms of purely theoretical damage output, Silver bolts in on par or superior to landing condemn into a wall.
Keep in mind as your attack speed goes up, and you start to pick up zerkers, a zeal maybe, a PD, it's as if the "Cooldown" on the skill Silver Bolts is going down, so you'll be able to proc this skill maybe 5-6 times in the time span of using Condemn. So you're getting more effective return on your skilling order earlier as well, you get stronger faster and you'll stay strong all game
Over the course of a lane I feel that Silver bolts has much more easily facilitated practical application, and superior functional damage output.
This is why you hear a lot of players say, "Vayne's weak early and strong late," simply because they are doing it wrong. I'll be the first to tell you she's strong early and stays strong all game, if you play her with correctly controlled aggression, using the SB's skilling order.
http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/duffs-336706
Come hang out when I'm streaming! http://www.twitch.tv/dufftime
Beeswarm17
<Member>
<Member>
Crows foot wrote:
There still have been no numerical or logical argument against levelling w first...
http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/forum/build-and-guide-discussion/alright-so-vayne-8780?page=5
Yeah, we've really been here before already, and not that long ago, at that.
I'm also not seeing anything particularly incorrect beyond situational anomalies in Duff's math. And I swear to God, if I see something like "well, what about against this champ..." I'm going to go nuts.
I'm not going to ignore the amount of damage I do at level 2 alone when it comes to landing that silver bolts hit. It's easier for me to land than condemn, but that might be because both sides end up sitting in the middle of the lane around the river where logic says they should be. If they're up against your tower, that's dumb, and your jungler will maul them. If you're up against their tower, you have somehow managed to actually push the lane with vayne (something I thought impossible). Their jungler will maul you. These are almost the only situations where someone's going to be close enough to a wall to condemn them. The last situation is the brush, which you can't normally see into.
Regardless, choose burst damage or choose sustained damage. I like having a lower CD on condemn for the safety it gives me (to knock people away from me), but silver bolts doesn't cost me mana. I really like that whole "no mana" thing.
Crows foot
<Member>
<Member>
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If I ever get around to playing her. Last time I played her was... month ago? Lol.
Mind telling me the items you do well w/ when maxing SB first?