Ionic Spark vs. Wits End on Shen

[quote=lol.incomplete.hw]Hey everyone, I am essentially looking for opinions on and maybe even some calculations regarding the use of Ionic Spark vs. Wits End on the champion Shen. In particular, would using the extra 10% AS from Ionic Spark relative to Wit's End make enough of a difference in a sustained TEAM FIGHT to substitute it for Wits End and it's magic resist? All opinions welcome as well as any calculations one might wish to share regarding both items utility in TEAM FIGHTS. Thanks.[/quote]

[quote=IceCreamy]Well it kinda depends on how many AP champs the enemy has. I am not sure about how many should be AP until Wit's End > Ionic Spark, I'll leave the math to someone else :D[/quote]

[quote=bsurma]Well, simple maths incoming, bro. [[wit's end]] costs you only 50 gold more and gives you 30+20 MR while [[ionic spark]] gives you no resists at all 'cept for pure health. And the health is really negligible (we're talking about 250 health, that's not much). I'd say if you're a huge split-pusher and you really need the fast wave-clear, than feel free to get [[ionic spark]], but otherwise [[wit's end]] will give you a lot more effectiveness in battle. Also, 40 magic damage on every auto. [[ionic spark]] gives you 120 on every fourth attack, which gives you a lot less single-target DPS. tl;dr: [[wit's end]] > [[ionic spark]] unless you're pushing damn hard.[/quote]

[quote=Pheyniex]depending on machup. not considering it, mind calculation tells me ionic synergises better with [[Shen]]. [[Ionic Spark]] gives [[Shen]] +25 on his [[Ki Strike]] and a miserable heal/hit... 1.027+50% = 1.541 AS -> *4=6.162s for 125 damage. from [[Ionic Spark]] (single target). 9/1.541= 6s (+/-) -> roughly the same time, +25 damage from [[Ki Strike]] => 150dmg/6sec [[Wit's End]] 1.027+40%=1.438 AS => 6/1.438=4 attacks => 168 damage/6sec... meh... for tf i guess [[Wit's End]] shall perform better...[/quote]

[quote=lol.incomplete.hw]Thanks for the insights and opinions. Thanks for saving me a few minutes on the math Pheyniex.[/quote]

[quote=lifebaka][quote=Pheyniex] depending on machup. not considering it, mind calculation tells me ionic synergises better with [[Shen]]. [[Ionic Spark]] gives [[Shen]] +25 on his [[Ki Strike]] and a miserable heal/hit... 1.027+50% = 1.541 AS -> *4=6.162s for 125 damage. from [[Ionic Spark]] (single target). 9/1.541= 6s (+/-) -> roughly the same time, +25 damage from [[Ki Strike]] => 150dmg/6sec [[Wit's End]] 1.027+40%=1.438 AS => 6/1.438=4 attacks => 168 damage/6sec... meh... for tf i guess [[Wit's End]] shall perform better... [/quote] This math is, unfortunately, not quite correct. % AS bonuses are calculated off of base AS, not total AS. At level 18 and with Ionic Spark, Shen will have about 1.35 AS, while with Wit's End he'll only be slightly lower at around 1.28, if the difference is even that large. To compare these a little, let's look at how much damage each provides per hit. Wit's, clearly, gives 42. Ionic Spark gives 125/4 = 31.25 damage per hit. 42 is 34.4% higher than 31.25, so in order to do the same amount of damage (considering just the item passives), Ionic Spark needs to have 34.4% more AS than Wit's End. And, of course, 134.4% of Wit's End's AS bonus would be 53.76%, which is more than Ionic Spark actually provides. Therefore Wit's End's passive provides more single-target damage than Ionic Spark, DPS-wise (since the game operates in discrete numbers of attacks, it's possible to do more damage with Ionic Spark, of course--if you only hit once and proc it, that's more damage than one hit with Wit's End--but over the long haul Wit's wins out). There's a lot more to the numbers than just this, because the extra 10% AS on Ionic Spark also combos with Shen's natural AD (and any other AD he may have built) for more damage, because the extra 10% AS and extra HP combo with his passive for even more damage (which is incredibly difficult to calculate, but I might try later), and because Ionic Spark's passive does damage to multiple targets. Since the numbers are so close looking only at the item passives, I expect to find that Ionic Spark does appreciably more damage, even to a single target, than Wit's End once everything is factored in. This isn't to say that Ionic Spark is better, of course. The comparison between MR and HP doesn't model well mathematically, because of how much the opposing team composition influences the value of the stats. The vast majority of teams do have at least one major source of magic damage and relatively few teams have large sources of true damage, so in general MR is more valuable than flat HP. In general, the choice between the two items is likely to come down to whether or not Shen needs more MR and whether or not Shen needs more pushing power.[/quote]

[quote=Pheyniex][quote=lifebaka] [quote=Pheyniex] depending on machup. not considering it, mind calculation tells me ionic synergises better with [[Shen]]. [[Ionic Spark]] gives [[Shen]] +25 on his [[Ki Strike]] and a miserable heal/hit... 1.027+50% = 1.541 AS -> *4=6.162s for 125 damage. from [[Ionic Spark]] (single target). 9/1.541= 6s (+/-) -> roughly the same time, +25 damage from [[Ki Strike]] => 150dmg/6sec [[Wit's End]] 1.027+40%=1.438 AS => 6/1.438=4 attacks => 168 damage/6sec... meh... for tf i guess [[Wit's End]] shall perform better... [/quote] This math is, unfortunately, not quite correct. % AS bonuses are calculated off of base AS, not total AS. At level 18 and with Ionic Spark, Shen will have about 1.35 AS, while with Wit's End he'll only be slightly lower at around 1.28, if the difference is even that large. To compare these a little, let's look at how much damage each provides per hit. Wit's, clearly, gives 42. Ionic Spark gives 125/4 = 31.25 damage per hit. 42 is 34.4% higher than 31.25, so in order to do the same amount of damage (considering just the item passives), Ionic Spark needs to have 34.4% more AS than Wit's End. And, of course, 134.4% of Wit's End's AS bonus would be 53.76%, which is more than Ionic Spark actually provides. Therefore Wit's End's passive provides more single-target damage than Ionic Spark, DPS-wise (since the game operates in discrete numbers of attacks, it's possible to do more damage with Ionic Spark, of course--if you only hit once and proc it, that's more damage than one hit with Wit's End--but over the long haul Wit's wins out). There's a lot more to the numbers than just this, because the extra 10% AS on Ionic Spark also combos with Shen's natural AD (and any other AD he may have built) for more damage, because the extra 10% AS and extra HP combo with his passive for even more damage (which is incredibly difficult to calculate, but I might try later), and because Ionic Spark's passive does damage to multiple targets. Since the numbers are so close looking only at the item passives, I expect to find that Ionic Spark does appreciably more damage, even to a single target, than Wit's End once everything is factored in. This isn't to say that Ionic Spark is better, of course. The comparison between MR and HP doesn't model well mathematically, because of how much the opposing team composition influences the value of the stats. The vast majority of teams do have at least one major source of magic damage and relatively few teams have large sources of true damage, so in general MR is more valuable than flat HP. In general, the choice between the two items is likely to come down to whether or not Shen needs more MR and whether or not Shen needs more pushing power. [/quote] ... <.< i knew something was off... but he difference will sill be minimal, i belive, since we're working with proporcionality.[/quote]

[quote=H4xDefender]Ionic pushes faster and does more aoe, but sunfire + wits is p good on shen and splitpushes just as well as ionic.[/quote]

[quote=lol.incomplete.hw]Thanks guys! Ionic for push and Wit's for single target dps. Got it.[/quote]

[quote=MrCuddowls]Wits is a better item[/quote]