Riven

[quote=lifebaka][quote=Satella] So if I had a skill that did 1000000000000% bonus AD as damage, you would still take Armor Penetration runes? [/quote] So if I made a strawman argument, you would concede that I won the debate? Realistically, there [i]could[/i] exist AD scalings so high that there would be no reason to build any ArPen in a [i]regular six item build[/i]. However, there still [i]exists[/i] an amount of AD (and resulting total damage) at which a single point of ArPen will be a larger damage increase than a single point of AD. Hell, there still exists some amount of damage where a single point of ArPen results in more damage than [i]fifteen trillion[/i] additional AD. Again, I'm going to bring in some math as soon as I can so we can know exactly where, for Riven, ArPen overtakes AD in terms of damage output. I expect the result to be late enough that ArPen runes are not ideal on Riven, given the strength of her early game and desire to snowball, but ArPen will always eventually become better than AD in terms of damage increase.[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=Satella] The bigger your AD scalings are and the lower your base damage is, the less compelling Armor Penetration looks. [/quote] Exactly this, it's about that ratio. Riven's individual base-damages (1 hit of Q for example) is garbage whilst Darius base damages (for example on Decimate) are great. Hence AD is more suitable for Riven and Arp is a more suitable stat for Darius.[/quote]

[quote=Satella][quote=lifebaka] So if I made a strawman argument, you would concede that I won the debate?[/quote] This is not a strawman. The point is: [list=1] [*]With 0 AD scaling, ArPen is better than flat AD. [*]With an arbitrarily high AD scaling, flat AD is better than ArPen. [*]Hence, there exists some AD scaling value threshold where higher ratios favor flat AD and lower ratios favor ArPen. [*]Due to 3, your claim of "there is no such thing as an AD scaling so high that ArPen is never worthwhile" is debunked. [/list] I'm amazed that I have to spell this out for you.[/quote]

[quote=BusDriver210][img=http://assets.diylol.com/hfs/3a6/a26/e2b/resized/og-meme-generator-shake-your-dicks-this-pissing-contest-is-over-e62bcd.jpg?1319601457.jpg][/quote]

[quote=NicknameMy]The decision between Arp and AD also depends on spells, which have for example an AD scaling but no physical damage or deal physical damage and have no AD scaling. Riven for example has her shield and Darius also deals magic and true dmg.[/quote]

[quote=lifebaka][quote=Satella] I'm amazed that I have to spell this out for you. [/quote] I'm as annoyed at this pissing contest as you are, and I equally feel like you are not listening to what I am saying. I am not advocating the use of ArPen runes over AD runes on Riven. Again, [b][u]I am not advocating the use of ArPen runes over AD runes on Riven[/u][/b]. As I have stated twice already, AD runes are better for abusing Riven's early game, which will help her snowball. ArPen runes, however, will result in better damage [i]at some point later in the game[/i], and ArPen runes will in fact result in better damage at some point regardless of how good a champion's AD scalings are. I am interested in seeing exactly where this point is (because I'm a nerd), and I expect to find that it is late enough in the game as to make ArPen runes extremely suboptimal. Again, [b][u]I am not advocating the use of ArPen runes over AD runes on Riven[/u][/b]. I agree with you that ArPen runes are not ideal, for generally the reasons you state. I do not agree with the implication, which I keep reading in your posts, that this makes ArPen a bad stat for abilities with high AD scalings, or that AD will always be superior to ArPen for abilities with high AD scalings, even if AD runes are generally preferable to ArPen runes for such abilities. I apologize if I am arguing against something that you do not intend to imply, but I just don't see anything in most of your statements to suggest that you are speaking solely about runes. I'll try to get up my math this evening.[/quote]

[quote=utopus]+rep for baka for doing the things that I don't have the attention span to do :> New proposal: change lifebaka's title from <member> to <math guy>[/quote]

[quote=RaNuD]Once again, lifebaka for president, pl0x. Also, I go straight AD on Riven for more lifesteal(passive so stronk) and scaling on Valor.[/quote]

[quote=DarkPercy][quote=utopus] change title from <member> to <math guy> [/quote] stop it, that's me :(.[/quote]

[quote=Zouchouten]Riven has incredible scaling with AD, so taking AD runes make getting first blood that much easier. It also helps with last hitting. You -could- bring ArPen runes on Riven, but I never do. Whenever I have issues with enemy armor or feel like my damage isn't as high as it should be, I get a brutalizer earlier. The Black Cleaver is always one of my core items so it doesn't hurt me to reach for it when laning. Sure the AD runes will eventually drop off but I find that the damage output is still higher in early game than if I use ArPen runes. And really, isn't that the only reason why we get non-scaling runes?[/quote]