Lee Sin changes from Riot Chun

[quote=The_Nameless_Bard]my feelings as a person who doesn't regularly play [[Lee Sin]]: passive: won't do much of anything early or late, might make early clears faster though q: feels overnerfed, will have to try him on pbe though W: welcome to the wonderful world of playing [[shen]], where one ability consumes half (or more) of your energy only to refund some of that ridiculous energy cost after the fact! Except this costs less than [[shadow dash]] and refunds more energy. In all seriousness, change was needed...perhaps only increasing the cost for ward jumps. I feel a doubled CD for ward jumps could be better. Way too many shitty [[Lee Sin]]s walking in my jungle, trying to trade/nearly dying, and getting out because [[safeguard]] to ward lololol. Not cool, yo. e: wtf riot. y u have vendetta against hybrid damage dealers? keep the nerf swords away from my [[Shyvana]] pls. Overall big nerf, suddenly armor stacking against [[Lee Sin]] is good. r: suddenly only rewards shitty plays. "hope to god I never see a [[Lee Sin]] at my elo again" level of nerf here.[/quote]

[quote=Darcurse]"balanced","skill dependant". You use these words but I do not think they mean what you think they mean... Granted, Lee Sin needs a tad more "skill" than the 3 you mentioned, but a "tad" means being able to hit ONE skillshot and to plant a ward fast enough to Safeguard your sorry ass or misuse it as a 9 sec Flash to chase somebody down. [quote = Luther3000]"Meanwhile champions like Vi, Panth or Wukong are allowed to exist who have point and click bullshit and can literally just press the R key and win."[/quote] It's exactly THAT reason why they tweaked Lee Sin's R: Because ppl tend to abuse it as a single-target POINT AND CLICK finisher (600+200%AD) instead of trying to go for the enemy group...[/quote]

[quote=Luther3000][quote=Darcurse] "balanced","skill dependant". You use these words but I do not think they mean what you think they mean... [/quote] can u not lol [quote=Darcurse] Granted, Lee Sin needs a tad more "skill" than the 3 you mentioned, but a "tad" means being able to hit ONE skillshot and to plant a ward fast enough to Safeguard your sorry ass or misuse it as a 9 sec Flash to chase somebody down. [/quote] Q is not easy to hit on someone who's awake unless you're already pretty close to them and ward jumping correctly is a lot harder than it looks, especially when you have a very limited window of time and you're under pressure. It's impossible to kick someone backward without using Flash or ward jumping. Plus if you fuck up your angle on your ult at all you end up kicking people in a bad direction and look like an idiot. Meanwhile Vi can close a gap of 1525 range and stun you with two button presses and no counterplay. [quote=Darcurse] It's exactly THAT reason why they tweaked Lee Sin's R: Because ppl tend to abuse it as a single-target POINT AND CLICK finisher (600+200%AD) instead of trying to go for the enemy group... [/quote] I don't really see the problem to be honest. Given how hard it is to aim already you can't really expect people to be kicking someone through the enemy team regularly. It's a short range ability, I have absolutely no problem with it being used as a high damage execute. And the "solution" to that is completely idiotic. With these numbers Lee Sin ult literally does less damage than Alistar's [[headbutt]] while having a similar CC effect and less range. Lee would never be played again if these changes happened.[/quote]

[quote=Darcurse]I just don't get you whiner.... He can do everything he could do now, except he doesn't deal fucktard tons of dmg while being unreasonably agile. - 2 in-build Flashes, one can be used as a scout - 1 degrading but heavy AS and MS slow (melee aoe) - 1 hard cc (FORCED MOVEMENT how many champs have that for crying out loud) that can either be used as group CC or to secure an enemy target. Vi is similar to Lee Sin in some ways, that's for sure, but only comparing one ability doesn't reveal how Lee Sin suprpasses her by a big margin. And I don't see Ali's Headbutt having the posibility to stun an entire team and increasing it's dmg on the target. (Not to mention that you can also kick someone through a minion wave to get the dmg stacks and that hitting only TWO enemy unit would result in more dmg than the current form) If you tell me how you can't see a problem with Lee be able to easily misuse his Ult as a high dmg single-target burst WHILE having everything else on it... Well then, I guess it would be totally cool with you if we keep his current dmg and simply discard everything else then?[/quote]

[quote=Khazem][quote=Darcurse] I just don't get you whiner.... He can do everything he could do now, except he doesn't deal fucktard tons of dmg while being unreasonably agile. - 2 in-build Flashes, one can be used as a scout - 1 degrading but heavy AS and MS slow (melee aoe) - 1 hard cc (FORCED MOVEMENT how many champs have that for crying out loud) that can either be used as group CC or to secure an enemy target. Vi is similar to Lee Sin in some ways, that's for sure, but only comparing one ability doesn't reveal how Lee Sin suprpasses her by a big margin. If you tell me how you can't see a problem with Lee be able to easily misuse his Ult as a high dmg single-target burst WHILE having everything else on it... Well then, I guess it would be totally cool with you if we keep his current dmg and simply discard everything else then? [/quote] are you seriously trying to argue that he needed/deserved nerfs like this? do you even play this game? besides, that's not even the point. Riot wanted to weaken his early game by nerfing all of his damage on his abilities and compensating with a late game buff on his attack speed passive (which is pretty much completely useless) so they're basically just straight up nerfing him... and hard. By doing this they also kill the full AD Lee Sin playstyle and force him into a champion that does no damage and is basically only useful for the displacement on his ultimate (which you need to now aim really well if you want it to be useful at all)[/quote]

[quote=Luther3000][quote=Darcurse] - 2 in-build Flashes, one can be used as a scout - 1 degrading but heavy AS and MS slow (melee aoe) - 1 hard cc (FORCED MOVEMENT how many champs have that for crying out loud) that can either be used as group CC or to secure an enemy target. [/quote] This is hyperbole. Q is in no way an in-built Flash. What popular jungler [i]doesn't[/i] have an in-built gapcloser, a hard cc and a utility ability? There aren't any, and all of the others are much easier to use and/or scale better into late game. You can make any champion sound OP if you write down an exaggerated list of only their strengths while blatantly ignoring their weaknesses. [quote=Darcurse] And I don't see Ali's Headbutt having the posibility to stun an entire team and increasing it's dmg on the target. (Not to mention that you can also kick someone through a minion wave to get the dmg stacks and that hitting only TWO enemy unit would result in more dmg than the current form) [/quote] Neither does Lee Sin ult unless your enemies are vegetables.[/quote]

[quote=sirell]I'd say that [[vi]] is probably stronger than [[lee sin]]. I'm surprised Lee needed a working over at all, let alone that [[vi]] has no changes to her in comparison. I thought Lee was fine where he was. He's definitely skill dependent. You can't just jump on every kill or just kick any high priority target when you felt like it. Not to mention that if you miss your Qs against a range opponent and he can't jump, he's pretty fucked.[/quote]

[quote=NicknameMy]Actually... [[Vault Breaker]] [list] [*] Minimum damage changed to 50 / 75 / 100 / 125 / 150 (+80% bonus AD) from 50 / 80 / 110 / 140 / 170 (+70% bonus AD) [*] Maximum damage changed to 100 / 150 / 200 / 250 / 300 (+160% bonus AD) from 100 / 160 / 220 / 280 / 340 (+140% bonus AD) [list] [*] 0/50/100/150/200 Bonus AD neutralizes the base damage nerf for both base and charged damage. [/list] [/list] [[Assault and Battery]] [list] [*] Cooldown increased to 140 / 110 / 80 from 130 / 105 / 80. [/list] But that change to Vi isn't going to do that much.[/quote]

[quote=Darcurse]Are YOU seriously trying to argue that he didn't need nerfs? Not defending Riot, they suck at balancing. But except for his dmg tweaks to weaken his early/push him late, the only nerfs he gained were for the two things player abused on him: Safeguard failsafe and Ult single-target bursting. Those nerfs may be a tad to strong, who knows for sure, only tests can show that, but they were definitely not misplaced. [quote = Khazem](which you need to now aim really well if you want it to be useful at all)[/quote] Like i edited in my prior post already: With numbers as they are, you need to hit TWO (FREAKING TWO) minions/monsters/champs for it to deal even MORE dmg than the current one....[/quote]

[quote=Luther3000][quote=Darcurse] Are YOU seriously trying to argue that he didn't need nerfs? [/quote] Yes, he's one of the best examples of a balanced champion in League of Legends. [quote=Darcurse] Like i edited in my prior post already: With numbers as they are, you need to hit TWO (FREAKING TWO) minions/monsters/champs for it to deal more dmg than the current one.... [/quote] Son... How often do you get an opportunity to kick people in the direction you want and there also just so happen to be enemy minions in that exact spot at that exact moment? It's not like you can force minions/monsters/champs to be where you're fighting.[/quote]