let's have a discussion about talon!!!!

[quote=Firehusary]Oh, I wanted to say that it now lasts 0.25 sec... Thoughts?[/quote]

[quote=Vapora Dark][quote=H4xDefender][quote=Vapora Dark][quote=H4xDefender]ill be honest and say i think he will still be fine. maybe tone up his damage amp a little bit to compensate, but i think people are overreacting[/quote] I disagree. His only redeeming factor has always been how reliable he is compared to other assassins such as Zed, in a 1v1 scenario, if he's ahead, he's 100% successful at what he does, and while in teamfights that varies depending on what your target's team does, it's still pretty reliable compared to others. After this, his laning is worse than Zed's, his mobility is worse than Zed's, his reliability is worse than Zed's, his mid-game is worse than Zed's, his late-game is worse than Zed's. Literally everything, is worse. With no silence, his laning is gutted, his mid-game will be crap if he gets set behind as a consequence of his bad laning, and his late-game will be trash, as his silence was the only thing making him viable compared to other assassins who have a way of getting in and out as opposed to getting in and either getting out of a pile of corpses or just plain dying. He might still be playable, but every single assassin is going to outclass him in [b]every[/b] aspect after this, if they don't compensate for the silence removal. Previously he was too risky to buff when he was considered weak, because they were afraid that with the silence, being strong would mean he was [b]too[/b] strong. Now that he's losing the broken silence of doom, there's room to buff him in the areas he's weak in; for example, his spells don't do enough damage compared to how much mana they cost early on, they have more ratio than base damage. Now that he has counterplay, they can actually give him early damage to compensate for how much he's going to fall off now. It may not seem like a 1 second silence is a huge deal, but I can tell you as someone who's played him in over a thousand games, it was a pretty big deal, and removing it is literally going to make him half as good as he is now.[/quote] Talon was already worse than zed in all of those aspects except lategame and maybe midgame, and he still is better than zed lategame if this change goes through, possibly still midgame too. Zed's reliablity depends on enemy zhonyas and qss, something talon doesn't have to worry about.[/quote] No, all Talon has to worry about now is any kind of instant/quick gap closer, such as [[tumble]], [[arcane shift]], [[relentless pursuit]], and [[flash]]. All of which are a lot easier to get access to than Zhonya's or QSS. [quote=H4xDefender]Talon's midgame was always crap when he was behind. In fact, a lot of champs are crap if they are behind, zed included.[/quote] But Talon's late-game used to be better than Zed's in most circumstances, in fact, I used to play keeping in mind that I was going to outscale both the enemy mid laner and enemy ADC because of how I could 1-shot either of them with no counterplay. Now that there IS counterplay, it takes away a huge part of what made Talon good late-game, and he's just NOT going to be good late-game anymore, at least not against mobile ADC's. Talon's early-game was mediocre, but made up for by his strong mid-game and late-game. Now his early-game is even weaker, NOT made up for by his mid or late-game scaling. I guess he'll stay strong-ish in the mid-game, but it's absolutely not worth trying to suffer through early-game to get to, in my opinion.[/quote]

[quote=TROLLing1999][quote=utopus]Status quo, I think they are removing too much from [[cutthroat]]'s playability. I'd think it'd be pretty cool to see [[cutthroat]] be reworked to have the current slow, and some defensive utility as well. It'd be pretty cool to see talon's gap closer be able to block the offensive first spell cast on him for the next 1 second, or something like that. Another thing that's important to note, is that talon IS actually getting a damage buff from this change. With the slow being added to [[cutthroat]], talon would be able to have [[mercy]] apply to his AA + [[noxian diplomacy]] that he'd cast immediately after the jump. Edited for clarity[/quote] Will one average player be able to land AA+Q in 1/4 second? Not sure. Also maybe it would be to give him a reset-able ability, ideally his ultimate.[/quote]

[quote=USUKtheguf]but its not really any different, gives enough time for an aa and an abbillity. but still not enough for him to secure kill. This is just my opinion so dont hate video link here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDB2...ature=youtu.be ^^[/quote]

[quote=Vapora Dark][quote=TROLLing1999][quote=utopus]Status quo, I think they are removing too much from [[cutthroat]]'s playability. I'd think it'd be pretty cool to see [[cutthroat]] be reworked to have the current slow, and some defensive utility as well. It'd be pretty cool to see talon's gap closer be able to block the offensive first spell cast on him for the next 1 second, or something like that. Another thing that's important to note, is that talon IS actually getting a damage buff from this change. With the slow being added to [[cutthroat]], talon would be able to have [[mercy]] apply to his AA + [[noxian diplomacy]] that he'd cast immediately after the jump. Edited for clarity[/quote] Will one average player be able to land AA+Q in 1/4 second? Not sure. Also maybe it would be to give him a reset-able ability, ideally his ultimate.[/quote] Now that it's a 0.25 second slow you'll be able to land 1 auto-attack during the slow, but definitely not 2. I've 100-0'd people in 2 auto-attacks plenty of time before, and the record for fastest burst time is 0.29 seconds, and that's with Youmuu's activated + lvl 18 attack speed.[/quote]

[quote=utopus]But isn't [[noxian diplomacy]] an AA reset? I don't see how [[[cutthroat]] + AA + [[noxian diplomacy]] is that difficult[/quote]

[quote=H4xDefender]pretty sure I conceded that talon's lategame is better, he doesn't get stopped by qss and zhonya's nearly as hard as zed does noxian diplomacy is kind've a slow auto attack reset, idk how to describe it[/quote]

[quote=Mooninites]I'm pretty sure it does not auto reset, it simply modifies the next auto attack[/quote]

[quote=Vapora Dark][quote=utopus]But isn't [[noxian diplomacy]] an AA reset? I don't see how [[[cutthroat]] + AA + [[noxian diplomacy]] is that difficult[/quote] AA resets aren't instant, and scale on attack speed.[/quote]

[quote=FantasySniper]If they go through with this change, which I hope they're not, they're going to need to compensate somehow. [[Talon]] relies on the fact there are no incoming spells from his target since he's a super-squishy assassin with no escape. To improve what they're attempting now, [s]the slow would have to last longer, at least 0.25 seconds, maybe have the magnitude reduced to nothing less than 90%.[/s] Talon can destroy people in ~0.3 seconds, but I don't know the specifics of his mechanics enough to know how much he deals within the first 0.1 seconds he uses [[Cutthroat]] to start his combo. The damage amp could be increased. Either in duration or early numbers. Another, but far-fetched one, is they could give it a secondary active of some sort. Even if it were to just re-apply the gap-close on bleeding targets or something like that. The whole change is sort of unnecessary when they can just make the silence not last as long, because [[Talon]] doesn't need much time at all to function and it'd just be shaving off unnecessary power. Edit: They beat me to it on the duration thing, heh.[/quote]