let's have a discussion about talon!!!!

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=DillButt64]you guys forgot that malz has a silence too in [[Call of the void]] [/quote] It isn't targeted, which makes it far less problematic.[/quote]

[quote=DillButt64]i was referring to the people that listed cho's and garens silence what i think they should do is give him a new passive, maybe extra MS when he kills/assists a champion or a reset on his ult if he kills/assists with lowered damage on his ult, or just give him some resistances or damage reduction when he uses E to make up for the punishment hes going to receive by not having the silence[/quote]

[quote=Vapora Dark][quote=H4xDefender]ill be honest and say i think he will still be fine. maybe tone up his damage amp a little bit to compensate, but i think people are overreacting[/quote] I disagree. His only redeeming factor has always been how reliable he is compared to other assassins such as Zed, in a 1v1 scenario, if he's ahead, he's 100% successful at what he does, and while in teamfights that varies depending on what your target's team does, it's still pretty reliable compared to others. After this, his laning is worse than Zed's, his mobility is worse than Zed's, his reliability is worse than Zed's, his mid-game is worse than Zed's, his late-game is worse than Zed's. Literally everything, is worse. With no silence, his laning is gutted, his mid-game will be crap if he gets set behind as a consequence of his bad laning, and his late-game will be trash, as his silence was the only thing making him viable compared to other assassins who have a way of getting in and out as opposed to getting in and either getting out of a pile of corpses or just plain dying. He might still be playable, but every single assassin is going to outclass him in [b]every[/b] aspect after this, if they don't compensate for the silence removal. Previously he was too risky to buff when he was considered weak, because they were afraid that with the silence, being strong would mean he was [b]too[/b] strong. Now that he's losing the broken silence of doom, there's room to buff him in the areas he's weak in; for example, his spells don't do enough damage compared to how much mana they cost early on, they have more ratio than base damage. Now that he has counterplay, they can actually give him early damage to compensate for how much he's going to fall off now. It may not seem like a 1 second silence is a huge deal, but I can tell you as someone who's played him in over a thousand games, it was a pretty big deal, and removing it is literally going to make him half as good as he is now.[/quote]

[quote=BlueArtist]So I am just going to join this discussion. I might have mentioned before but anyway the first champion I ever played was [[Talon]], and I still occasionally play him. I think Vapora has really gotten the important consequences of removing the silence. The only reason [[Talon]] can even do well in lane is because of his silence, due to it opening up the small window where you can trade the opponent. What is [[Cutthroat]] without the silence? A boring, useless spell that really doesn't do much. The silence is a vital part of his kit which allows him to win trades during the laning phase. As an assassin, once his silence is removed he becomes extremely vulnerable, with all sorts of CCs being able to be cast on him. This isn't creating counterplay anymore; the opponents do not even need any skills or mechanics to actually counter him; they simply move away or trade back. [[Talon]] would lose every possible trade, unable to actually assassinate a target, and rendered completely useless. Nerfing [[Talon]] is not just taking the silence away. Unlike [[LeBlanc]], who can [[Distortion]] back to avoid taking too much in return, right after [[Talon]] uses [[Cutthroat]] all he can do is either continue hitting the enemy or try to walk away without being damaged too much. Assuming Riot is that naive and removes his silence anyway, I do not think any form of compensation could prevent [[Talon]] from becoming unviable. Removing his silence is more than a nerf, it is as good as killing him off the champion pool.[/quote]

[quote=NicknameMy][quote=GrandmasterD][quote=DillButt64]you guys forgot that malz has a silence too in [[Call of the void]] [/quote] It isn't targeted, which makes it far less problematic.[/quote] Cho's also isn't targeted :D.[/quote]

[quote=H4xDefender][quote=Vapora Dark][quote=H4xDefender]ill be honest and say i think he will still be fine. maybe tone up his damage amp a little bit to compensate, but i think people are overreacting[/quote] I disagree. His only redeeming factor has always been how reliable he is compared to other assassins such as Zed, in a 1v1 scenario, if he's ahead, he's 100% successful at what he does, and while in teamfights that varies depending on what your target's team does, it's still pretty reliable compared to others. After this, his laning is worse than Zed's, his mobility is worse than Zed's, his reliability is worse than Zed's, his mid-game is worse than Zed's, his late-game is worse than Zed's. Literally everything, is worse. With no silence, his laning is gutted, his mid-game will be crap if he gets set behind as a consequence of his bad laning, and his late-game will be trash, as his silence was the only thing making him viable compared to other assassins who have a way of getting in and out as opposed to getting in and either getting out of a pile of corpses or just plain dying. He might still be playable, but every single assassin is going to outclass him in [b]every[/b] aspect after this, if they don't compensate for the silence removal. Previously he was too risky to buff when he was considered weak, because they were afraid that with the silence, being strong would mean he was [b]too[/b] strong. Now that he's losing the broken silence of doom, there's room to buff him in the areas he's weak in; for example, his spells don't do enough damage compared to how much mana they cost early on, they have more ratio than base damage. Now that he has counterplay, they can actually give him early damage to compensate for how much he's going to fall off now. It may not seem like a 1 second silence is a huge deal, but I can tell you as someone who's played him in over a thousand games, it was a pretty big deal, and removing it is literally going to make him half as good as he is now.[/quote] Talon was already worse than zed in all of those aspects except lategame and maybe midgame, and he still is better than zed lategame if this change goes through, possibly still midgame too. Zed's reliablity depends on enemy zhonyas and qss, something talon doesn't have to worry about. Talon's midgame was always crap when he was behind. In fact, a lot of champs are crap if they are behind, zed included. Every aspect? Talon will still go onto someone and demolish them in a heartbeat if they don't flash away immediately, you are 100% overreacting. Flash does not have the same cooldown as talon ult. I don't need your credentials. I know enough about talon to make my own judgment on how the nerf will affect him, and he definitely won't be unplayable. No champion bursts people down as quickly as talon, and they did not touch his damage. Yes he won't have a silence, so people can counterattack, but you usually ult immediately which takes away all the chances of targeted spells hitting you anyway.[/quote]

[quote=TheKut]Just a quick thought. I'm not a good [[talon]] player and I don't really know that much about how reliable his silence is, but what would happen if they kept the silence but made the ability a long range dash instead? That way he could still be rewarded for a good dash but punished but really punished for a bad one.[/quote]

[quote=utopus]Status quo, I think they are removing too much from [[cutthroat]]'s playability. I'd think it'd be pretty cool to see [[cutthroat]] be reworked to have the current slow, and some defensive utility as well. It'd be pretty cool to see talon's gap closer be able to block the offensive first spell cast on him for the next 1 second, or something like that. Another thing that's important to note, is that talon IS actually getting a damage buff from this change. With the slow being added to [[cutthroat]], talon would be able to have [[mercy]] apply to his AA + [[noxian diplomacy]] that he'd cast immediately after the jump. Edited for clarity[/quote]

[quote=NicknameMy]slow duration is now 0.25 seconds.[/quote]

[quote=Jimmydoggga 2.0]That would hurt more than if they just got rid of the silence. Talon players don't land skillshots. :p[/quote]