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Q first, but you desperately need one in E for the slow, passive (offensive) and active (defensive or for ranged damage).
Personal habitual activites? Utilizing gargantuan idioms to fabricate intelligence.
"It's a colloquial shorthand that means the paradigm exists because of how the game works mechanically. Hence, "the Meta." Stop being a useless pedant." - PlayGooYa
"It's a colloquial shorthand that means the paradigm exists because of how the game works mechanically. Hence, "the Meta." Stop being a useless pedant." - PlayGooYa
Tried with full critdmg runes and arpen/flat ad. Still the Crits are like 250~ (early on) which is certainly high.
But important for a jungler is to do successful ganks as well as clearing the jungle as fast as possible, and Deceive is not that spamable like two shiv to let Shaco clear the jungle fast enough.
The Two Shiv is a last resort. Yes. But this last resort is what gives you the kill in a gank in 90% of all ganks. Enemies will use their escape skills / flash and if your only range skill does not deal any damage, then it will be easy for them to escape.
Ever tried to gank a Riven with Q maxed first? Now you jump in, deal 20% of her health with ur first crit, get her feared and deal like another 20-40% of her life. Now she has 40% left and just stuns you (when not earlier) uses her E and then starts to spam Q out of the fight.
Now add some damage from your laner so 10% life are left (Means that you truly did 40% of her health with auto attacks). A Lvl 1 Two Shiv wouldn't even deal enough damage to destroy the shield of her E. Even if she was ignited, she would possibly survive this gank.
But now imagine you would have skilled Two Shiv first. Same scenario, your first hit would only deal 5-15% of her health. And then again the damage form normal attacks with JitB 20-40% 45% left. Again add the damage of your laner (take 30% again) 15% left and now add ignite and a lvled Two Shiv from BEHIND (+20% damage). The damage difference between a lvled E is much higher than the damage difference of a first lvled Q...
Since a lvled Q only provides damage in %, means you have to get tons of AD first to use the %-damage.
But important for a jungler is to do successful ganks as well as clearing the jungle as fast as possible, and Deceive is not that spamable like two shiv to let Shaco clear the jungle fast enough.
The Two Shiv is a last resort. Yes. But this last resort is what gives you the kill in a gank in 90% of all ganks. Enemies will use their escape skills / flash and if your only range skill does not deal any damage, then it will be easy for them to escape.
Ever tried to gank a Riven with Q maxed first? Now you jump in, deal 20% of her health with ur first crit, get her feared and deal like another 20-40% of her life. Now she has 40% left and just stuns you (when not earlier) uses her E and then starts to spam Q out of the fight.
Now add some damage from your laner so 10% life are left (Means that you truly did 40% of her health with auto attacks). A Lvl 1 Two Shiv wouldn't even deal enough damage to destroy the shield of her E. Even if she was ignited, she would possibly survive this gank.
But now imagine you would have skilled Two Shiv first. Same scenario, your first hit would only deal 5-15% of her health. And then again the damage form normal attacks with JitB 20-40% 45% left. Again add the damage of your laner (take 30% again) 15% left and now add ignite and a lvled Two Shiv from BEHIND (+20% damage). The damage difference between a lvled E is much higher than the damage difference of a first lvled Q...
Since a lvled Q only provides damage in %, means you have to get tons of AD first to use the %-damage.
^ To guy above me, if you didn't have the 20% damage on her hp from Deceive to begin with, you wouldn't be able to take her down anyway. Fact is, you deal more damage with Deceive than with Two-Shiv Poison, so if you didn't get her that low, because you didn't max Deceive first, there's no point in throwing a Two-Shiv Poison at her, because she's not low enough.
Besides, I use Deceive as a counter-flash, so that when I go ganking, I usually run in behind them in lane, so that they see me. They Flash behind me, towards their own tower, and I use Deceive to catch up and slow them/fear them. From there, they have nothing but maybe an Exhaust or Riven ninja skills to get away with, but I never said all champions are easy to gank. They won't be any easier to gank by maxing Two-Shiv Poison first though ;) A gank is all about CC and damage, and I prioritize heavy damage from Deceive instead of slightly increased CC from Two-Shiv Poison, while damage is much lower. You still have a 20% slow + red buff, remember ;)
Deceive to begin with, you wouldn't be able to take her down anyway. Fact is, you deal more damage with Deceive than with Two-Shiv Poison, so if you didn't get her that low, because you didn't max Deceive first, there's no point in throwing a Two-Shiv Poison at her, because she's not low enough.Besides, I use
Deceive as a counter-flash, so that when I go ganking, I usually run in behind them in lane, so that they see me. They Flash behind me, towards their own tower, and I use Deceive to catch up and slow them/fear them. From there, they have nothing but maybe an Exhaust or Riven ninja skills to get away with, but I never said all champions are easy to gank. They won't be any easier to gank by maxing Two-Shiv Poison first though ;) A gank is all about CC and damage, and I prioritize heavy damage from Deceive instead of slightly increased CC from Two-Shiv Poison, while damage is much lower. You still have a 20% slow + red buff, remember ;)
There is no victory without humility.
Do you even DO ganks once in a while?
A good ganker is less about his dmg output but more about his capability to CC.
You should come in superior numbers in a gank anyway.
And while most laners dont have a strong CC or the possibility to get close enough to actually land it, the jungler therfore exists.
Not to mention that it's NOT always a given that every gank victim calmy awaits your Deceive hit after seeing that nice little orange puff of smoke..
Actual dunno which standard you're playing at.
A good ganker is less about his dmg output but more about his capability to CC.
You should come in superior numbers in a gank anyway.
And while most laners dont have a strong CC or the possibility to get close enough to actually land it, the jungler therfore exists.
Not to mention that it's NOT always a given that every gank victim calmy awaits your Deceive hit after seeing that nice little orange puff of smoke..
Actual dunno which standard you're playing at.
As I explained before, I'm not using Deceive to get into lane, but rather to catch up to enemies who uses Flash. The 4 next levels in Two-Shiv Poison will together give half of the initial slow, which is 20% (30% at level 5). Which means, if you gank at level 5, and you have Two-Shiv Poison at level 3, you get a 25% slow instead of 20%, which is basically nothing. The point of doing a gank is after all killing the champion, so it's only logical that you would want damage. Of course you want CC, but comparing a level 3 Deceive to a level 3 Two-Shiv Poison, Deceive totally wins damage-wise (unless you only have Magic Pen runes, Masteries or Items). And you won't get that much more CC from maxing Two-shiv first.
And I do gank in Ranked games, that's precisely why I started this topic. Duh. :)
Deceive to get into lane, but rather to catch up to enemies who uses Flash. The 4 next levels in Two-Shiv Poison will together give half of the initial slow, which is 20% (30% at level 5). Which means, if you gank at level 5, and you have Two-Shiv Poison at level 3, you get a 25% slow instead of 20%, which is basically nothing. The point of doing a gank is after all killing the champion, so it's only logical that you would want damage. Of course you want CC, but comparing a level 3 Deceive to a level 3 Two-Shiv Poison, Deceive totally wins damage-wise (unless you only have Magic Pen runes, Masteries or Items). And you won't get that much more CC from maxing Two-shiv first.And I do gank in Ranked games, that's precisely why I started this topic. Duh. :)
There is no victory without humility.
Somehow I got the feeling your enemys are damn bad, or you're just damn lucky.
No top or bot lane would get ganked by Shaco like you stated.
Yeah you run behind them, even if they don't have a ward they won't just flash lol.. Which idiot instantly flashes after he sees Shaco behind him o0!?...
Edit: Or you don't know what it means to jungle
No top or bot lane would get ganked by Shaco like you stated.
Yeah you run behind them, even if they don't have a ward they won't just flash lol.. Which idiot instantly flashes after he sees Shaco behind him o0!?...
Edit: Or you don't know what it means to jungle
Well, if they don't Flash, too bad for them, I'll just walk silently over to them and slow them, so that my lanepartners can use whatever CC they have, and it's gg.
Trust me, it works very well, but I don't gank super passive lanes. I gank Kassadin with his ulti in midlane using Deceive when he's off balance. It's not hocus-pocus man :)
A bit of communication, and a bit of luck, leaves you with the best ganks. You won't do it better with Two-Shiv, and that's what this thread is about after all.
Flash, too bad for them, I'll just walk silently over to them and slow them, so that my lanepartners can use whatever CC they have, and it's gg.Trust me, it works very well, but I don't gank super passive lanes. I gank Kassadin with his ulti in midlane using
Deceive when he's off balance. It's not hocus-pocus man :)A bit of communication, and a bit of luck, leaves you with the best ganks. You won't do it better with Two-Shiv, and that's what this thread is about after all.
There is no victory without humility.
I won't do better with Two-Shiv lvled first? Really. If you think about which runes you have to use to make lvling Q first matter, then it would be obvious right? The percentage damage early on is around 70-80.
Crit is 160. + (we take lvl 3 Q) 80% damage, but this damage isn't from 160 but from the 80.
So 160+64.
If we take Critdamage runes (48% if I remember correctly) 198,4 + 64.
(if from behind 160+64+44,8 -> 268,8// 198,4+64+52 -> 314,4
That's your first hit in theory, now consider armor etc.-> 31 Armor => 26% damage reduce:
268,8 - 69,89 = 198,91 (<- this can incrase if you have arpen runes)// 314,4 - 81,74 = 232,66 (<-this can't incrace since we are using full crit damage runes)
+Two Shiv Poison Lvl 1: 40 + 0Ap + 40AD = 80 damage +(20%) 16 = 96 Magic Damage
(enemy 40Mres => 29% Damage reduce) ==> Total Damage: 68,16 Damage + 198,91 (267,07) // + 232,66 (300,82)
Two Shiv Poison:
120 (Lvl3) + 0AP (we could consider Sheen, but at this time you may only ahve Wriggles)
+ 40 = 180 + 20% (+36) = 216 Magic Damage (+20%)+43,2 = 259(40 Mres => 29% Damage reduce)
--> 183,89 Damage + Lvl 1 Deceive: (80*2)160 + 40%(64) = 224 +(20%)44,8 = 268 (31Armor) - 58,24 = 198,32 ==> Total damage: 382,21
So which is higher? Sorry I have to sleep, if you did not understand something feel free to ask and if you find any mistakes, feel free to correct.
Crit is 160. + (we take lvl 3 Q) 80% damage, but this damage isn't from 160 but from the 80.
So 160+64.
If we take Critdamage runes (48% if I remember correctly) 198,4 + 64.
(if from behind 160+64+44,8 -> 268,8// 198,4+64+52 -> 314,4
That's your first hit in theory, now consider armor etc.-> 31 Armor => 26% damage reduce:
268,8 - 69,89 = 198,91 (<- this can incrase if you have arpen runes)// 314,4 - 81,74 = 232,66 (<-this can't incrace since we are using full crit damage runes)
+Two Shiv Poison Lvl 1: 40 + 0Ap + 40AD = 80 damage +(20%) 16 = 96 Magic Damage
(enemy 40Mres => 29% Damage reduce) ==> Total Damage: 68,16 Damage + 198,91 (267,07) // + 232,66 (300,82)
Two Shiv Poison:
120 (Lvl3) + 0AP (we could consider Sheen, but at this time you may only ahve Wriggles)
+ 40 = 180 + 20% (+36) = 216 Magic Damage (+20%)+43,2 = 259(40 Mres => 29% Damage reduce)
--> 183,89 Damage + Lvl 1 Deceive: (80*2)160 + 40%(64) = 224 +(20%)44,8 = 268 (31Armor) - 58,24 = 198,32 ==> Total damage: 382,21
So which is higher? Sorry I have to sleep, if you did not understand something feel free to ask and if you find any mistakes, feel free to correct.
I didn't quite understand the formula, but I tried my best. But I noticed one thing; you didn't consider the crit damage mastery at all, so it's not 48% at level 1, it's 58%. Oh, and lets not forget that if we go offensive, we will get some bonus AD as well.
Since you seem to be the better one at math formulas, why don't you make another one including 58% bonus crit damage? :) And at level 3, it should be 80% + 10% (mastery) + 8% (runes) = 98%?
Oh, not to mention, Wriggle's Lantern gives 23 attack damage, which will increase our damage at level 3 by 23 * 0.8 = 18,4.
I'm not sure, but I think you'll see it more even after that, I may be wrong, but I will test it out and come back to you :)
Care to do another round using those numbers? ;)
Since you seem to be the better one at math formulas, why don't you make another one including 58% bonus crit damage? :) And at level 3, it should be 80% + 10% (mastery) + 8% (runes) = 98%?
Oh, not to mention,
Wriggle's Lantern gives 23 attack damage, which will increase our damage at level 3 by 23 * 0.8 = 18,4.I'm not sure, but I think you'll see it more even after that, I may be wrong, but I will test it out and come back to you :)
Care to do another round using those numbers? ;)
There is no victory without humility.
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