Shaco - E or Q?

[quote=Darcurse]And like he already stated, you're damn lucky or playing against bad players. (Tend for the latter) WALKING without anything to gank sb is just plain dumb, even dumber if you can actually get sb this way. You dont need numbers. Yeah, maxing Deceive first would indeed give you quite a one-hit dmg skill (brushing aside that your normal attacks would be quite meh) BUT, your CC would be bad AND in most cases you won't be able to get close to a decent laner. Srsly, the moment I see jungle Shaco use Deceive from the side-brushes I'm already out of reach so he MUST use Two-Shiv to get me. You want to do it without using Deceive at all? Good luck. The moment you use it to counter the enemies Flash you'll wind up right behind his tower.[/quote]

[quote=Kurt_Ottman]As I already stated; I don't gank lanes who are laid-back like that, nobody does. Your jungler goes for the kill either when counter-ganking or when the enemy is going for your tower. Ganking a laid-back lane is useless, no matter how you attack them. And 10% more slow isn't going to help you turn that fact around in most situations.[/quote]

[quote=xIchi]Ganking is not about kills. Ganking is to let the laner fear you and not overextend, or to harrass the laner so your laner can farm way better. Ganking is to deny the enemys farm/confidence... Edit. And I found a mistake in my maths... mom I'll write it more clean and tidied.. Edit 2: Here it is: I did a Custom Game till Lvl 5 to get these Numbers: Runes:46% Crit Damage Masteries: 21 9 0 – There are no Crit Damage Masteries anymore, got removed in Ziggs Patch. Shaco Lvl 5: Q3 ,W1, E1, R0 Items: Wriggles AD: 75+Wriggles = 98 AP: 0 Deceive Lvl3: 180% (I just noticed that the tooltips got changed, and my former information was false) This 180% is the Crit, so the Crit from Deceive is not a real crit with 200% damage. No I do not really know how to add the 46%(Runes) into this. So I'll just assume, that they add into the 180% which means a Deceive Crit will now deal 226%Damage. Two-Shiv Poison: 40 +49 +0 → 89Magic Damage 98AD * 2,26 = 221,48 Physical Damage + from behind(+20%) 44,29 = 265,77 31 Armor (26% Damage Reduce) 69,1 → 265,77 – 69,1 =196,67 Total Physical Damage 89 Magic Damage +20% from behind (17,8) = 106,8 40 Magic Resist (29% Damage Reduce) 30,97 → 106,8 – 30,97 = 75,82 Total Magic Damage Total Damage dealt: 75,82 + 196,67 =[b] 272,49[/b] If we take same Runes and Masteries: AD: 98 AP: 0 Deceive Lvl 1: 140% (we add the 46% (runes) again → 186% Two Shiv Lvl3: 120 +49 +0 → 169 Magic Damage 98AD*1,86 = 182,28 Physical Damage + from behind(+20%) 36,46 = 219,34 31 Armor (26% Damage Reduce) 57,02 → 219,34 – 57,02 = 162,31 Total Physical Damage 169 Magic Damage +20% from behind (33,8) = 202,8 40 Magic Resist (29% Damage Reduce) 58,81 → 202,8 – 58,81 = 143,98 Total Magic Damage Total Damage dealt: 143,98 + 162,31 =[b] 306,29[/b] Edit3: These Numbers are all without any consideration of ArPen Masteries, but since they use the same Masteries, the outcome would be the same Edit4: You see, since it is percentage damage, the difference between Q Lvl 1 and Q Lvl 3 is not that high. 34,36 Damage...[/quote]

[quote=Kurt_Ottman]Too bad, that was really a good math equation, but you're wrong, [[Lethality]] is still a mastery, even after the Ziggs patch. What they did was switch out [[Deadliness]] crit chance for attack damage per level. But I agree, since the beginning of this thread, I'm starting to feel like Two-shiv is actually viable to level first, even though your mana costs at level 9 will be screwed up.[/quote]

[quote=xIchi]Oha you're right.. but would still be the same ^^''.. And for mana costs, you have Mana buff if mid does not need it. Or just steal enemy blue at 7:20[/quote]

[quote=animorte][quote=Darcurse] Do you even DO ganks once in a while? A good ganker is less about his dmg output but more about his capability to CC. You should come in superior numbers in a gank anyway. And while most laners dont have a strong CC or the possibility to get close enough to actually land it, the jungler therfore exists. Not to mention that it's NOT always a given that every gank victim calmy awaits your Deceive hit after seeing that nice little orange puff of smoke.. Actual dunno which standard you're playing at. [/quote] Not entirely true. Different junglers have different mechanics. Every jungler diesn't have to be loaded with CC. That's what laners are for as well. Combined CC from two champions can almost always guarantee a kill, provided the opposing laner doesn't insta-Flash after seeing that orange puff of smoke. Remember, Deceive teleports him as well. Most the time, by the time they can react, you are already directly beside them. He has constant slow, which works well with any possible allied CC.[/quote]

[quote=Kurt_Ottman]I think you're on to something, but I'm really start to get the feeling the only thing that is better with [[Deceive]] is the lowered mana costs. I'm still not sure if it's better to leave [[Deceive]] at level 1 until last though. Oh, and another thing, [[Deceive]] is spammable if you level it first, while [[Two-shiv poison]] only acts as a last resort thingy, meaning you're not supposed to throw it just for the heck of it, as you might need the passive. [[Deceive]] can be spammed, and should be better if you're pushing for example. You can jump into the lane without using up your mana, and you can escape almost without fear of having too low mana for [[Deceive]].[/quote]

[quote=Darcurse]@animorte Still, without at least some slow of the jungler the laner wont get close. If you arent overextending that moment/stiking close to an unwarded riverbrush... Deceive's teleport wont get you that close. And I didnt mean I'll insta Flash, just walk back, he WILL hit you with Two-Shiv's active but that's that. @Kurt "Spammable"? You mean like "11 sec spammable"? Srsly, regarding mana, you wont have any kind of problem since a) You'll have blue buff or if you can manage your mana consumption properly b) wont have any mana problem at all. You'll use Deceive once while ganking one lane, after that the enemy will kiss the floor or got away, dunno WHERE you "spam" it (do you actually use it to farm in jungle or what..?) And btw: [quote]still not sure if it's better to leave Deceive at level 1 until last though[/quote] Even while maxing Two-Shiv first, on AD Shaco Deceive will be maxed 2nd not last![/quote]

[quote=animorte]That's where baiting comes in. :)[/quote]

[quote=Epic MF][quote=Darcurse] @Kurt "Spammable"? You mean like "11 sec spammable"? Srsly, regarding mana, you wont have any kind of problem since a) You'll have blue buff or if you can manage your mana consumption properly b) wont have any mana problem at all. You'll use Deceive once while ganking one lane, after that the enemy will kiss the floor or got away, dunno WHERE you "spam" it (do you actually use it to farm in jungle or what..?) [/quote] Everyone knows [[Jack in the box]] + [[Deceive]] is the best way to take buffs without taking any damage for [[Shaco]] ;) And I'm talking about the possibility to spam it, and I use it quite often to get over jungle walls etc. Besides, if all you can do in a gank is flash in with [[Deceive]] and throw your dagger, any ganker would be better really. You need to look for openings where you can go in close and personal, and only use the dagger [i]after[/i] they [[flash]]. You want to optimally give away your second blue buff to your mid carry. The reason is that with [[Deceive]] maxed first, you [i]won't[/i] have any problems with your mana. You will if you max [[Two-shiv poison]] first. That's a factor to take into consideration too.[/quote]