Click to open network menu
Join or Log In
Mobafire logo

Join the leading League of Legends community. Create and share Champion Guides and Builds.

Create an MFN Account






Or

MOBAFire's final Season 13 Mini Guide Contest is here! Create or update guides for the 30 featured champions and compete for up to $200 in prizes! 🏆
's Forum Avatar

Vayne in 5 minutes by Ace Ventura

Creator: Ace Ventura October 26, 2011 7:59am
DuffTime
<Member>
DuffTime's Forum Avatar
Show more awards
Posts:
12302
Joined:
Oct 31st, 2010
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep October 26, 2011 11:30am | Report
Nope. You guys have it wrong, I'm telling you.

Silver bolts is without a doubt the superior skilling order.

You mention it uses an enemies max HP. Have you forgotten entirely that it also adds a large flat damage bonus? Both of you talk about the % true damage. What about the massive flat damage?

60 flat damage? AND a % of true damage? Think logically here... If your target has 800 HP, and you land 3 shots, you're getting 60 flat damage, and 8% of 800, which is 64. in total, 124 damage.

I don't need you to be near a wall. I don't need you to be put near a wall. I can land that every 2-3 seconds. If I land that 2 times, it'll take me maybe between 4-6 seconds, never really sat down and counted how long it would take to calculate that, then I've already dealt 248 damage. 3 times? 372 damage. If you can pin them into a wall, you'll get 370 damage. If you can't, you'll get 185.

Anybody support that I've ever laned with will tell you the damage is undeniable and it's not hard to get the hits off. I usually leave laning phase with 5 or more kills.

I call it drastically superior because that's what it is. It's much much better.
DuffTime
<Member>
DuffTime's Forum Avatar
Show more awards
Posts:
12302
Joined:
Oct 31st, 2010
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep October 26, 2011 11:32am | Report
You know... I might just try to fish out some replays and see if I have games recorded or something.

I've explained it to you guys and you won't listen to obvious math. Maybe if you see the actual game play you'll understand.
Wayne3100
<Retired Admin>
Wayne3100's Forum Avatar
Show more awards
Posts:
7192
Joined:
Aug 3rd, 2011
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep October 26, 2011 11:40am | Report
DuffTime wrote:

You mention it uses an enemies max HP. Have you forgotten entirely that it also adds a large flat damage bonus? Both of you talk about the % true damage. What about the massive flat damage?


Wayne3100 wrote:

Same goes for Silver Bolts though (to a lesser extent) as leveling a skill that deals damage based on enemies' max health on every third hit doesn't make a huge difference early game (unless the base true damage is the reason for leveling it early, not sure about the strength of that).


I actually mentioned it -.-'

Not sure about the strength though.

DuffTime wrote:

60 flat damage? AND a % of true damage? Think logically here... If your target has 800 HP, and you land 3 shots, you're getting 60 flat damage, and 8% of 800, which is 64. in total, 124 damage.

I don't need you to be near a wall. I don't need you to be put near a wall. I can land that every 2-3 seconds. If I land that 2 times, it'll take me maybe between 4-6 seconds, never really sat down and counted how long it would take to calculate that, then I've already dealt 248 damage. 3 times? 372 damage. If you can pin them into a wall, you'll get 370 damage. If you can't, you'll get 185.

Anybody support that I've ever laned with will tell you the damage is undeniable and it's not hard to get the hits off. I usually leave laning phase with 5 or more kills.

I call it drastically superior because that's what it is. It's much much better.


It's not that easy. Every decent opponent will be aware of their positioning and won't be easily hit 3 times in a row. In early levels there's also quite a lot of minion damage coming your way if you decide to keep chasing your enemy cause you badly want those hits. There's also the enemy support who can either CC you ( Alistar/ Taric) or damage you ( Sona/ Janna) for quite a high amount of health early game.

It's way too simple to assume you're gonna hit enemies three times in a row every 2-3 seconds. It's simply not true.

I don't wanna say it's bad, but just as Condemn requires you to have good positioning or your enemy to have bad positioning (or both), Silver Bolts requires your enemies to be unable to counter using the same strategy every few seconds. Condemn only requires you to get in a good position once.

Thanks to MissMaw for the signature!
DuffTime
<Member>
DuffTime's Forum Avatar
Show more awards
Posts:
12302
Joined:
Oct 31st, 2010
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep October 26, 2011 11:57am | Report
"Every decent opponent will be aware of their positioning"

Then how do you intend to nail them into a wall? :p

Well, I can't convince you just with words. I will still have the 90 damage from the double nail (Condemn is the skill I choose to level last.) and then my bonus damage from Silver Bolts as well.

I'm not saying that I will hit my enemies 2-3 times every 2-3 seconds and I never did say that I would. I'm just telling you guys, mathematically when we engage, over the course of a fight, I have MUCH more damage in my pocket than you do leveling condemn. It's not even comparable. Over a ten second fight -in lane phase- I might deal anywhere from 300-900 damage with Silver bolts depending on the HP of my target and how many times I can land the skill.

Over a ten second fight, with maxed condemn, you can land a maximum of 370 and that's only if you nail them into the wall. I don't have to nail you, and if we're fighting, I'll be getting my attacks off.

Again, stuns, supports, disables, etc, all of that is well and good, but I'm gonna land at least 6 consecutive shots in a fight, and if I can do that then the damage is already essentially equal. Anything after that is pure profit.
Wayne3100
<Retired Admin>
Wayne3100's Forum Avatar
Show more awards
Posts:
7192
Joined:
Aug 3rd, 2011
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep October 26, 2011 12:28pm | Report
lol that's why I said your enemies need to be badly positioned if you want to Condemn them (and of course your positioning should be pro as well) :P It's situational and not always easy to land, that's a fact.

I get the idea of what you're saying but I personally don't find it very easy to hit enemies 3 times in a row often, so in a ten second fight you might get the third hit on them once, might be 3-4 times or even more, but it might also never happen.

You do use AS runes however, right (or do I not remember correctly from the last time there was a discussion about this)?
Btw how does levelling Silver Bolts affect your farm? Are you constantly looking to hit enemies three times in a row (thus losing out on some lasthits) or is that not a problem? *genuine interest*

Thanks to MissMaw for the signature!
Wayne3100
<Retired Admin>
Wayne3100's Forum Avatar
Show more awards
Posts:
7192
Joined:
Aug 3rd, 2011
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep October 26, 2011 12:30pm | Report
DuffTime wrote:

You know... I might just try to fish out some replays and see if I have games recorded or something.

I've explained it to you guys and you won't listen to obvious math. Maybe if you see the actual game play you'll understand.


Would like to see that :)

Thanks to Hoppermh for the signature!
DuffTime
<Member>
DuffTime's Forum Avatar
Show more awards
Posts:
12302
Joined:
Oct 31st, 2010
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep October 26, 2011 12:34pm | Report
I occasionally miss a last hit in order to get my third attack off.

My enemies in turn miss their last hits because they are busy pissing blood :P

Or we can do some customs so that the players can feel the damage as well. There's a lot of ways that it can be done.

Getting the three hits off is easy. I don't know what you're doing wrong >:P
Wayne3100
<Retired Admin>
Wayne3100's Forum Avatar
Show more awards
Posts:
7192
Joined:
Aug 3rd, 2011
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep October 26, 2011 12:39pm | Report
Yup, must be me :|
I've tried it before but it didn't work very well for me. Must admit that was during my earlier days as Vayne when I was happy with getting a 4/1/2 score though (considering how blatantly OP she was I really should've done better lol xD).

You know what, I'll try it again :)

Btw, AS runes right?

Thanks to jhoijhoi for the signature!
omagma
<Member>
omagma's Forum Avatar
Show more awards
Posts:
1677
Joined:
Jul 27th, 2011
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep October 26, 2011 12:54pm | Report
Oh duff, your so stubborn and ignorant <3
Thanks to me and Elleeeeeka (love that name) for my sigs.
If i made a helpful comment on your guide/build, then hit that +rep button. or don't, its not like i care.
ALL HAIL QUEEN CHRYSALIS!
DuffTime
<Member>
DuffTime's Forum Avatar
Show more awards
Posts:
12302
Joined:
Oct 31st, 2010
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep October 26, 2011 1:02pm | Report
10% AS is enough. I get it between my runes and masteries. I think I use 4 or 5 AS reds and get the rest in offensive masteries.

The rest ArP.

You need to log in before commenting.

League of Legends Champions:

Teamfight Tactics Guide