Best way to Counter Shyvana

[quote=NateDog13][quote=SOAC Bas] [quote=NateDog13] Adding to Soac Bas's comment, you kind of just ignored what I said afterwards. So I'll regurgitate: "...And yes, the roaming potential of top laners generally come from teleport [color=#ff0000]and should the assassin not have it[/color], all they can do is really roam mid or steal red from the jungler, but it still makes a significant impact on the game for things like assisting a jungler on invasions early on and forcing early towers." [/quote] This is the biggest difference between solo queue lifers and team play. A top lane assassin in team play will communicate to his jungler at the start of the game let's go kill opposing jungler at red. They then push the lane out leave and go kill the opposing jungler return with buffs and kill top lane then push and take turret. Standard top lane play is I am going to passively farm until lvl 10 and have items then I will leave lane. I am workign on ganking jungler at red as a mid laner and top laner. I even once ganked jungler at blue as a support. It's an easy way to get the other team early and cause their jungler to fall behind. [/quote] Bingo! Take all my money :D[/quote]

[quote=Mooninites][quote=SOAC Bas] [quote=Mooninites] This is a completely hypothetical scenario that's pretty farfetched to begin with. Are you trying to say [[Zed]] is a strong match-up to shyvanna when he doesn't have to lane against her? [/quote] I believe you misunderstand the meaning of far fetched. Far fetched means hard to believe and borderline ludicrous. Are you saying that zed pushing a lane then roaming for kills is hard to believe? Or is it saying that zed shouldn't try to force a trade against a champ that will be tough to kill either way? I am saying that zed is a champ who can poke and get farm on shyvana and then leave to go roam rather than staying in lane. Zed is not an easier champion than the others, but if you have to pick a champ that cane effectively push a lane and then leave to go make an impact on the game then Zed is perfectly fine. Once he gets gear he can clear really fast, prevent Shyvana from taking a turret, and still roam and make an impact. He can trade with the jungler giving effective ganks and allowing the jungler to pick up some farm. How is this far-fetched? [/quote] Roaming is not always successful, it's also relying on your jungler covering top for you which he may or may not do, and in the end if it does fail, you're even further behind. There are lots of champions that can poke and roam well, [[Nidalee]] would theoretically be a really good pick against [[shyvanna]] because she pokes and roams far better than [[zed]] but she's not an exceptional pick against her. I think you're also forgetting that Shyvanna roams and pushes extremely well, marginally better than [[zed]]. And the reason your argument is far-fetched, is because it's inconsistent and focuses on your roam being effective (as in you picking up kills) and your jungler covering for you. So he has to get kills to get items to even compete with shyvanna? That's not a model for success. I mean you should win your lane or be able to compete with your lane opponent when you've gotten kills and they haven't. It's just such a dumb argument; by that logic top lane [[zilean]] would be a good pick against shyvanna as long as you roam and pick up kills. [quote=SOAC Bas] really don't like any assassins top except teemo [/quote] [[teemo]] is not an assassin [quote=SOAC Bas] I didn't say Zed can win lane against Shyvana. I said he is a good matchup. Winning lane isn't just about outfarming your opponent Natedog explains how you win lane without actually beating them. [/quote] If [[Zed]] can't win lane against [[Shyvana]] then it's a bad match-up, it's as simple as that. As far as what natedog said, why the fuck would you take an assassin top lane, when you can take the assassin mid lane and roam MUCH better? It doesn't even make sense, use your brain dude. [quote=NateDog13] "...And yes, the roaming potential of top laners generally come from teleport and should the assassin not have it, all they can do is really roam mid or steal red from the jungler, but it still makes a significant impact on the game for things like assisting a jungler on invasions early on and forcing early towers." [/quote] Every top laner is capable of roaming and making an impact; an assassin taking teleport instead of ignite tremendously undermines it's kill potential, so if you're taking an assassin top lane you shouldn't have teleport[/quote]

[quote=NateDog13][quote=Mooninites] Roaming is not always successful, it's also relying on your jungler covering top for you which he may or may not do, and in the end if it does fail, you're even further behind. There are lots of champions that can poke and roam well, [[Nidalee]] would theoretically be a really good pick against [[shyvanna]] because she pokes and roams far better than [[zed]] but she's not an exceptional pick against her. I think you're also forgetting that Shyvanna roams and pushes extremely well, marginally better than [[zed]]. And the reason your argument is far-fetched, is because it's inconsistent and focuses on your roam being effective (as in you picking up kills) and your jungler covering for you. So he has to get kills to get items to even compete with shyvanna? That's not a model for success. I mean you should win your lane or be able to compete with your lane opponent when you've gotten kills and they haven't. It's just such a dumb argument; by that logic top lane [[zilean]] would be a good pick against shyvanna as long as you roam and pick up kills. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If [[Zed]] can't win lane against [[Shyvana]] then it's a bad match-up, it's as simple as that. As far as what natedog said, why the fuck would you take an assassin top lane, when you can take the assassin mid lane and roam MUCH better? It doesn't even make sense, use your brain dude. [quote=NateDog13] "...And yes, the roaming potential of top laners generally come from teleport and should the assassin not have it, all they can do is really roam mid or steal red from the jungler, but it still makes a significant impact on the game for things like assisting a jungler on invasions early on and forcing early towers." [/quote] Every top laner is capable of roaming and making an impact; an assassin taking teleport instead of ignite tremendously undermines it's kill potential, so if you're taking an assassin top lane you shouldn't have teleport [/quote] Firstly, Nidalee is a terrible pick against someone like Shyvana. Nidalee can't outpush Zed, which if Zed can't outpush Shyvana like you say, you can't expect Nidalee to outpush her. Secondly, she cant even hold lane against Shyvana, she's literally gonna get dove and abused by Shyvana and the enemy jungler. Thirdly, her roam isn't better than Zed and you're silly for saying that. She doesn't have as much kill potential, she was made for sieging and teamfight poking, even if you were to try and use the Bruiser Nidalee as a point for roaming, its still not better than Zed. Next, watch your language, this isn't solo queue. Nobody is causing you to rage or anything. Calm yourself, think of this as a professional environment, dont be ignorant. And why would people take an assassin top? Because it can be done, and has been done, and will continue to be done. Mid laner going a common sieger like ziggs and you got a jungle tank? Why not?[/quote]

[quote=Jimmydoggga 2.0]BotRK Teemo.[/quote]

[quote=Mooninites][quote=NateDog13] Next, watch your language, this isn't solo queue. Nobody is causing you to rage or anything. Calm yourself, think of this as a professional environment, dont be ignorant. [/quote] First things first, I've been a member of this community far longer, literally years before you, hell I've probably been a member of this community before you even started playing league. So don't come here walking around like you fucking own the place. You watch your language, you don't need to tell me how to act, unless of course you want me to tell you how to, because I have no problem telling you to fuck off. And you want to lecture me on ignorance, aren't you a piece of work. I never said [[Nidalee]] was a great pick against [[shyvana]], I was actually saying the opposite maybe if you had any level of reading comprehension that the average freshman in high school has, even in these educationally devalued times, you'd pick that up. And yes, [[Nidalee]] does roam better than [[Zed]], she might not have the kill pressure that he does, but her poke and speed is far better than Zed's. you're right, she doesn't have great waveclear, at least not pre-6, but Zed's waveclear isn't great early either, it may not be Nidalee bad, but let's stop pretending he's blowing waves to high hell from levels 1-5[/quote]

[quote=utopus]I'm with moon on this one. Ranged hero with mobility, 100% brush control, poke and sustain should be able to consistently beat out a shyvana[/quote]

[quote=NateDog13][quote=Mooninites] [quote=NateDog13] Next, watch your language, this isn't solo queue. Nobody is causing you to rage or anything. Calm yourself, think of this as a professional environment, dont be ignorant. [/quote] First things first, I've been a member of this community far longer, literally years before you, hell I've probably been a member of this community before you even started playing league. So don't come here walking around like you fucking own the place. You watch your language, you don't need to tell me how to act, unless of course you want me to tell you how to, because I have no problem telling you to fuck off. And you want to lecture me on ignorance, aren't you a piece of work. I never said [[Nidalee]] was a great pick against [[shyvana]], I was actually saying the opposite maybe if you had any level of reading comprehension that the average freshman in high school has, even in these educationally devalued times, you'd pick that up. And yes, [[Nidalee]] does roam better than [[Zed]], she might not have the kill pressure that he does, but her poke and speed is far better than Zed's. you're right, she doesn't have great waveclear, at least not pre-6, but Zed's waveclear isn't great early either, it may not be Nidalee bad, but let's stop pretending he's blowing waves to high hell from levels 1-5 [/quote] I could care less how long you or I have been apart of the community, you can't even converse without throwing out toxicity which only weakens your argument. I don't own this place, which is ignorant to say considering you just called it a "community." I'm glad you feel so confident enough to run around with such an attitude spewing toxicity at people. You aren't giving the people around you the common courtesy of curbing your crude language. "I never said Nidalee was a good pick against Shyvana [...]" lets compare this, to this: "There are lots of champions that can poke and roam well, Nidalee would theoretically be a really good pick against shyvanna because she pokes and roams far better than Zed but she's not an exceptional pick against her." And if you want to bring out the "I said theoretically argument", we've been talking about theoretical things the whole time so that's pointless to even try and use to shut down my argument. Make up your mind and be clear, or are you going to keep insulting me to try and disregard everything to try and feel dominant? Lastly, "...but Zed's waveclear isn't great early either, it may not be Nidalee bad, but let's stop pretending he's blowing waves to high hell from levels 1-5." Then let's stop pretending that Shyvana does the same thing. You can't compare a Nidalee waveclear at any level towards Shyvana or Zed because she cannot clear as fast as they do no matter what. And her poke and speed? Just a second ago you pointed out the reliance on roaming working. Nidalee poke and speed isn't going to lead to much success unless you're running bruiser Nidalee in which it has a higher chance of working, but I'd argue it would be on the same level as Zed roam.[/quote]

[quote=Jimmydoggga 2.0]Never tried this matchup but what about Garen? If you can land your Q on Shyvana repeatedly when her burnouts on CD you could easily push her out of lane.[/quote]

[quote=Hannul]can we go back to talking about [[shyvana]] instead of trying to say who's argument is better/more valid please. or I guess if it keeps going on I can bring popcorn.[/quote]

[quote=The_Nameless_Bard][[Olaf]] is really irritating to play against as [[Shyvana]], I can confirm this fact.[/quote]