Darcurse wrote:
@Dufftime: that
Well there is "tried and true" or "what I thought of after clearing my bong"
Any AP Shaco players want to put their skills up against the pros? Any AD Shaco players?
My guess is no, people love to talk the talk, but they fail to walk the walk.
"But Jeffy how's that fair?" well it puts the tried and true against the random failness that is AP Shaco. Or the squishy (lack of SUPER burst) AD Shaco.
Stop with the "conformity" mud throwing. It's a childish excuse for the meat of the issue. It's something that parents use on their children "If all your friends jumped off a bridge would you do it too?"
That isn't to say if pros don't play a champ they aren't viable. But there are certain variables everyone needs to pay attention to.
1. Pros play on a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT LEVEL; it's entirely possible that their skill level and experience has given them NO reason to play AP Shaco because he's unreliable and definitely relies on the opposing team to be bad. (Won't see teams at that level play as badly as we do on our best days).
2. The meta, there is no room for a squishy AP/AD Assassin like Shaco. There are CURRENTLY champions that provide more durability and damage. Shaco is dwarfed by them.
Moving on:
How many Gragas players do you see in 30+ games of LoL? Maybe 1 or 2? If he's free maybe 4 or even 5? Shushei mains with Gragas has quite often, does well most of the time. But we NA players don't see many Gragas players on our servers. EUE/W may be different. A pro plays the champ, but we don't conform to that. Pro plays X champion, there isn't a soul reason for all of us why we play the champs we play. I like AP Carrys, so I play Cass/Annie/Xerath (recently Xerath). But Cass and Annie have taken a back seat to Ori/Brand/Zilean in pro play. Hasn't stopped me from playing them, hasn't made me go "OHHHHHHHHHH I NEEDA PLAY BRAND"
The point(s) I'm trying to make is(are)
1. AP Shaco has no place in competitive play. Want to play him, fine by me, but I don't see anyone stepping up to carry with AP Shaco in ranked. Nor do I see AP Shaco doing anything helpful period on a regular basis. He relies too heavily on bad play from opposing teams IMO.
2. Pros play more LoL at a higher level than most of us will ever know. Their experience trumps our opinions or our fanboy mentalities.
3. All of this is not to say that a champions can't be built or played a certain way. That's the whole reason we have a large selection of runes and items. BUT there are just some things that are less useful. You want an AP assassinesque champ? Akali is your champ, she's got stealth, a blink, a mid range poke, and some AoE. Not to mention she's about 100 times more durable and reliable than any version of shaco.
^ That.
Darcurse, you can dislike me as much as you want, and post whiny, annoyed things at me all day.
You wouldn't be the first. In fact you'd be one of probably ten or fifteen now who don't like me on this website. I give zero ****s.
If you don't like me stating the simple fact that not all champions are equally balanced, and that some are simply stronger than others, and if you want to improve your chances of winning, that you should use the champions that are stronger..? I don't know what to tell you.
I also said if you want to play a champ for fun, then play it. I'm not telling you never to play Shaco.
That's where I'm at a loss for words here. You're mad I'm saying Shaco sucks, and all I'm saying is if you want to try hard and be competitive, then yeah Shaco does suck. Pretty much any champion is better competitively than Shaco is.
For some reason, that's like a personal attack to you. Don't understand why.
*Shrug.
Darcurse, you can dislike me as much as you want, and post whiny, annoyed things at me all day.
You wouldn't be the first. In fact you'd be one of probably ten or fifteen now who don't like me on this website. I give zero ****s.
If you don't like me stating the simple fact that not all champions are equally balanced, and that some are simply stronger than others, and if you want to improve your chances of winning, that you should use the champions that are stronger..? I don't know what to tell you.
I also said if you want to play a champ for fun, then play it. I'm not telling you never to play Shaco.
That's where I'm at a loss for words here. You're mad I'm saying Shaco sucks, and all I'm saying is if you want to try hard and be competitive, then yeah Shaco does suck. Pretty much any champion is better competitively than Shaco is.
For some reason, that's like a personal attack to you. Don't understand why.
*Shrug.
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<Member>
<Member>
Luther3000 wrote:
I completely agree with what Jeffy and Duff said.
For once. :P
qtf, with the weight on "for once"
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I am against asking for rep, only rep me if you think I contributed well or said something wise.
Some ppl get pissed around here pretty quick without even being mentioned.. woah.
That "that" stands for one thing:
I dont give a **** what ppl say about pros and what they play.
Since you guys repeating over and over again "XYZ did...", "Since QWER ...."
All I said was that you should let those ppl play their champs. Then someone from the sideline shouts "HES USELESS". Hell yeah way to go, buddy, content and purpose zero.
Btw: Jeffy you should add AD Shaco to that "points you want to make clear", otherwise most of it would be pretty meaningless since I also are not talking about AP Shaco.
And Duffy, dont be depressed, its not that I dont like you, the only thing you can interpret from things i summed up until now:
Since you think youre all-knowing, i dont give a **** about your opinion.
That "that" stands for one thing:
I dont give a **** what ppl say about pros and what they play.
Since you guys repeating over and over again "XYZ did...", "Since QWER ...."
All I said was that you should let those ppl play their champs. Then someone from the sideline shouts "HES USELESS". Hell yeah way to go, buddy, content and purpose zero.
Btw: Jeffy you should add AD Shaco to that "points you want to make clear", otherwise most of it would be pretty meaningless since I also are not talking about AP Shaco.
And Duffy, dont be depressed, its not that I dont like you, the only thing you can interpret from things i summed up until now:
Since you think youre all-knowing, i dont give a **** about your opinion.
I appreciate the mention that you don't dislike me, however your posts were implying a fair amount of things that were not true, and I wanted to clarify. I too, do not give a **** about your opinion either, or the opinion of anybody else on MobaFire. I will gladly listen to people's idea and their thoughts, and even test what they have to offer out, and make up my mind later for myself, however.
Obviously anybody can play any champion they want. I played revive jungle twitch three games in a row the other day to have fun and troll some normals with friends.
I reiterate, play whatever you want to play.
However some OTHER members, not yourself, are implying that viability of champions like Shaco at a competitive level, and imply that it's not putting yourself at a disadvantage to pick these champions.
I simply for the sake of the newer players who may potentially be reading, wanted to make it perfectly and painfully clear that this is not the case. There are champions who are simply better than other champions in this game- it is not a perfectly balanced game.
TL;DR,
Some champs are better than others.
Play to be competitive and play to have fun are ideas that need to remain separated.
Obviously anybody can play any champion they want. I played revive jungle twitch three games in a row the other day to have fun and troll some normals with friends.
I reiterate, play whatever you want to play.
However some OTHER members, not yourself, are implying that viability of champions like Shaco at a competitive level, and imply that it's not putting yourself at a disadvantage to pick these champions.
I simply for the sake of the newer players who may potentially be reading, wanted to make it perfectly and painfully clear that this is not the case. There are champions who are simply better than other champions in this game- it is not a perfectly balanced game.
TL;DR,
Some champs are better than others.
Play to be competitive and play to have fun are ideas that need to remain separated.
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Restrictnine#5232
<Veteran>
<Veteran>
@Darcurse, there are certain exceptions that prove the rule, like irelia, nidalee, maokai, ezreal, etc. they are technically used in tourney play, but only cuz that player played so much of that champ that they can exploit the stregths. i dont think nidalee is viable anymore, but she was banned in every clg game anyways because HSGG is just so good at nidalee.
Theres a difference between playing what is viable and playing what the elite play.
If you really want me to explain exactly what the difference is, I will but it was assumed that most people could connect the dots. "what the tournament players play" is a general term. Nidalee is "what the tournament players play" in the sense that she is used by HS... but its for a different reason than "nidalee is viable". its because hotshot has played thousands and thousands of games with nidalee and can carry with her because he knows the champ so damn well.
champs like vayne and gangplank are "what the tournament players play" in the sense that they are viable, and have been consistently proven at high elo AND tournament play. They arent an exception where one player is exceedingly good with that champ. Many players can play them and be successful.
Nidalee, Twitch, Maokai, Ezreal, etc. are champs that one or two people are good at, are technically "what the tournament players play", but they are not all that viable.
To follow up what duff said about doublelift and blitz, Ocelote from SK used to be denied akali because she wasn't considered strong up until a few weeks ago, due to her single target damage and is easily countered. Even though Akali is TBH Ocelote's best champ, he wasn't allowed. And a few months ago I would have agreed because while Ocelote might be one of the best akali players, Akali just didn't present much to competitive play.
Of course now that is irrelevant because Akali is the queen of burst, which is what the meta is lol. But hopefully you see my point.
Theres a difference between playing what is viable and playing what the elite play.
If you really want me to explain exactly what the difference is, I will but it was assumed that most people could connect the dots. "what the tournament players play" is a general term. Nidalee is "what the tournament players play" in the sense that she is used by HS... but its for a different reason than "nidalee is viable". its because hotshot has played thousands and thousands of games with nidalee and can carry with her because he knows the champ so damn well.
champs like vayne and gangplank are "what the tournament players play" in the sense that they are viable, and have been consistently proven at high elo AND tournament play. They arent an exception where one player is exceedingly good with that champ. Many players can play them and be successful.
Nidalee, Twitch, Maokai, Ezreal, etc. are champs that one or two people are good at, are technically "what the tournament players play", but they are not all that viable.
To follow up what duff said about doublelift and blitz, Ocelote from SK used to be denied akali because she wasn't considered strong up until a few weeks ago, due to her single target damage and is easily countered. Even though Akali is TBH Ocelote's best champ, he wasn't allowed. And a few months ago I would have agreed because while Ocelote might be one of the best akali players, Akali just didn't present much to competitive play.
Of course now that is irrelevant because Akali is the queen of burst, which is what the meta is lol. But hopefully you see my point.
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Darcurse wrote:
Some ppl get pissed around here pretty quick without even being mentioned.. woah.
That "that" stands for one thing:
I dont give a **** what ppl say about pros and what they play.
Since you guys repeating over and over again "XYZ did...", "Since QWER ...."
All I said was that you should let those ppl play their champs. Then someone from the sideline shouts "HES USELESS". Hell yeah way to go, buddy, content and purpose zero.
Btw: Jeffy you should add AD Shaco to that "points you want to make clear", otherwise most of it would be pretty meaningless since I also are not talking about AP Shaco.
And Duffy, dont be depressed, its not that I dont like you, the only thing you can interpret from things i summed up until now:
Since you think youre all-knowing, i dont give a **** about your opinion.
Arguing semantics. If I said Shaco wasn't viable in competitive play at all, the would you have felt better?
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...
If you want to talk about that "competetive gaming" of yours, go off into your own world and get all teary-eyes for those 30+ inch idols of yours...
(And ofc go into frenzy when you see some of those "useless" champs raping you)
I guess most of the ppl around here are talking about some ordinary gaming and not about "what did that sucker on that tourny do"
Use it for some reference but seeing you guys basing your life on it seems somewhat gross.
@Dufftime: that