nand
<Member>
<Member>
The reason I don't think stacking items should be removed yet is because I always see the enemy carry getting a Mejai's Soulstealer or Sword of the Occult very early on, making me shift my ganking focus to them and having them end the game with 0/15/x or so. It just makes them completely useless.
If they're smart they'll sell it for other items, putting them at a disadvantage. If they're dumb they keep it throughout the game, they provide for an easy win.
As has been stated, Leviathan is a dumb idea on tanks. Tanks should not be fleeing "because they don't want to lose stacks" to let the rest of their team die.
Leviathan is an item that a carry should be buying. I've seen it mentioned in several guides for melee AD champs like Gangplank before, since it's *them* that have problems surviving, not the tanks.
Also, for what it's worth: It's easy for characters like Amumu to get Leviathan stacks, since his W debuff works on everybody in range - giving him at least 1 assist per champion killed.
This won't work after the first teamfight since they'll click on "Death Recap" and see Ashe dealing 80% physical damage.
If they're smart they'll sell it for other items, putting them at a disadvantage. If they're dumb they keep it throughout the game, they provide for an easy win.
As has been stated, Leviathan is a dumb idea on tanks. Tanks should not be fleeing "because they don't want to lose stacks" to let the rest of their team die.
Leviathan is an item that a carry should be buying. I've seen it mentioned in several guides for melee AD champs like Gangplank before, since it's *them* that have problems surviving, not the tanks.
Also, for what it's worth: It's easy for characters like Amumu to get Leviathan stacks, since his W debuff works on everybody in range - giving him at least 1 assist per champion killed.
Quoted:
Finally, take the last, rarest case, of a player who is building bulky DPS but starts out with a very aggressive item build. Let's use jungle Olaf as an example. He builds Sword of the Occult first and gets off a lot of good ganks, reaching 8 stacks (6 assists, 1 kill). However, the majority of the kills he got went to his ranged carries in mid and top lane, Miss Fortune and Ashe. Knowing that the ranged carries will deal out huge damage late-game, Olaf transitions into a bulky DPS build, getting Sunfire, Force of Nature, and Guardian Angel and no other offensive items. However, because of the scare that the enemy team got early game and the stacks that Olaf has, he is immediately the first glaring target that they focus. This gives your carries time to turn around the team fight, even though you die in the process. In that sense, you're abusing the notion of the snowball item as a "FOCUS ME" beacon to protect your carries.
This won't work after the first teamfight since they'll click on "Death Recap" and see Ashe dealing 80% physical damage.
Jebus McAzn wrote:
Could I have some examples? I know of very few, if any tanks that can hit 20 stacks reliably. Also, the role of the tank is to protect the carry - oftentimes this means dying so they can escape. In that sense, isn't Leviathan the worst stacking item of the three since it's designed to suit a character that is more likely to die early-game than others? I do, however, understand the rationale of Leviathan late-game, since tanks are focused less in those phases. Still, if you're in a scenario where your carries are focused down and only the tanks are left, that Leviathan isn't really all that helpful anyway.
I know of some tanks like Cho'Gath and Nunu. As we all know, Cho'Gath is a giant tank that is a threat. However, the carries behind Cho'Gath is a bigger threat. As a result, people will try to take the carries out. Cho' Gath rakes in tons of assist with any of his abilities. In team fights, you are almost guaranteed a kill because of Feast. Instantly focus someone, and feast for the finisher. Cho'Gath is difficult to kill because when he is at 6 Feast Stacks, he is beefy in HP, so the Leviathan will make him stronger. Nunu is another prime example because your ultimate will rake in assists like a champ. When people rush for your carries, Nunu can slow enemies, and can speed up allies. Nunu is a giant gamechanger, and is extrememely dangerous. When team fights begin, people commonly don't see Nunu as a giant threat since he can't taunt like Shen and Rammus. As a result, Nunu dosen't die often. The above statement is on the belief that MOST people focus dps, and not tanks. If not, that'd be silly.
Jebus McAzn wrote:
In this scenario, you're already winning - you have the premise that your team can help you get kills/assists. In that sense, if you're already winning, doesn't it make more sense to get a Bloodthirster/Rabadon's/Randuin's instead of the appropriate stacking item? Both will secure your victory just as well - in a winning scenario, you really have to make some stupid mistake in order to lose, and no item will save you there (apart from maybe Zhonya's or QSS).
Well, let's have a look at Nand's graph above. It shows that a fully stacked snowball is more cost efficient than any other item out there. The extra gold can be used to create other items or to purchase elixirs., IMO.
Jebus McAzn wrote:
This brings up another point I was going to write about - priority targets. Twitch is extremely high-priority in team fights. He's almost always the first to get focused - as soon as he destealths, all enemy fire shifts to him (unless you've got a really good tank on your team with fantastic CC). In that sense, since you're already playing a high-risk playstyle, doesn't it actually make more sense to get Sword of the Occult? The same applies for other high-priority champions like Veigar, Annie, or Fiddlesticks.
Well, the way I see it is that there's a high chance of death for high-priority champions. Getting snowballs on a high-priority champion is a horrible idea because no matter what, you ALMOST guaranteed to die. As a result, grab a solid item that gives the stats you need instead of depending on a fluxing amount of AD/AP. For example, on Twitch, I try to do my best to stay alive, but to not die. However, I want to do the most for my team. When it comes to Snowball items, I can melt everyone's HP to 10%, only to get assists after my death because I was so quickly focused. However, I died, so I lost 1/3 of my total stacks. Most of the time, I will come back alive with LESS AD than I had to start with. I just don't like depending on the amount of AD that will fluxuate all the time.
I hope I answered everything well. I'm kinda sick today. If you have more questions, or clarifications, just ask!
Visfarix
<Member>
<Member>
The way I see it, getting a snowballing item is a gamble you make, in which you say, "Once I've got this item, I can get kills/assists without dying and build up a bunch of stacks for a relatively cheap power boost."
The problem is, this gamble is usually not worth it.
If you're losing, getting a snowballing item in hopes that you can get some kills/assists for that power boost to turn things around is unlikely. In the first place you have to break even the cost of just getting the item before your power boost becomes worth it. In that time and gold, you could've bought something else that would've helped you for certain with less or no risk and without the worry that you'll lose what you just picked up.
If you are winning, getting a snowballing item just because you can "build it up quickly" is silly. Your snowballing item just turns into a "win more" item that's also very risky. It's "win more" because you're already getting a bunch of kills and gold, so snowballing items just gives you more of a single stat you can get from other items that also give unique bonuses. It's risky because it takes up an item slot for something else that gives you bonuses you might need, and if you die and lose stacks, the opposing team has a very good chance to turn things around.
About the only time this gamble is worth it is when both teams are evenly matched and/or the snowballing item is not the primary stat you are looking for. If you can steadily build up stacks without dying, giving your team the advantage, then you just made a worthwhile risk. If you minimize the risk by getting the item to help compliment your build rather than depend on it because you know you can maintain a certain level of stacks, then the snowballing item might have been worth it.
The problem is, this gamble is usually not worth it.
If you're losing, getting a snowballing item in hopes that you can get some kills/assists for that power boost to turn things around is unlikely. In the first place you have to break even the cost of just getting the item before your power boost becomes worth it. In that time and gold, you could've bought something else that would've helped you for certain with less or no risk and without the worry that you'll lose what you just picked up.
If you are winning, getting a snowballing item just because you can "build it up quickly" is silly. Your snowballing item just turns into a "win more" item that's also very risky. It's "win more" because you're already getting a bunch of kills and gold, so snowballing items just gives you more of a single stat you can get from other items that also give unique bonuses. It's risky because it takes up an item slot for something else that gives you bonuses you might need, and if you die and lose stacks, the opposing team has a very good chance to turn things around.
About the only time this gamble is worth it is when both teams are evenly matched and/or the snowballing item is not the primary stat you are looking for. If you can steadily build up stacks without dying, giving your team the advantage, then you just made a worthwhile risk. If you minimize the risk by getting the item to help compliment your build rather than depend on it because you know you can maintain a certain level of stacks, then the snowballing item might have been worth it.
So here's the Sonatas' advice on snowballing items.
Don't get them. Simply don't. They may offer high ratios for AP or AD per gold, but they don't offer secondary effects like LS, SV, and other things. In fact, they don't even offer secondary stats such as HP, MP, MR, etc.
Those effects are very important in laning and then later on.
Getting a snowballing item assumes that you can completely outplay your opponent, which signifies a pubstomp. If your skill level is that much higher than theirs, then you shouldn't need the item in the first place - just farm your usual items and you still win.
This is why you should never get the snowballing items. In high ELO matches, total deaths usually doesn't exceed 15 per team, and most of those are ganks. Low ELO, if you are able to outplay your opponents completely, then you don't need the items in the first place - they just help you to win a bit easier. The point is that there's really no middle ground to getting snowballing items; you'll either be dominating or not dominating, and in either instances it's not absolutely necessary.
Don't get them. Simply don't. They may offer high ratios for AP or AD per gold, but they don't offer secondary effects like LS, SV, and other things. In fact, they don't even offer secondary stats such as HP, MP, MR, etc.
Those effects are very important in laning and then later on.
Getting a snowballing item assumes that you can completely outplay your opponent, which signifies a pubstomp. If your skill level is that much higher than theirs, then you shouldn't need the item in the first place - just farm your usual items and you still win.
This is why you should never get the snowballing items. In high ELO matches, total deaths usually doesn't exceed 15 per team, and most of those are ganks. Low ELO, if you are able to outplay your opponents completely, then you don't need the items in the first place - they just help you to win a bit easier. The point is that there's really no middle ground to getting snowballing items; you'll either be dominating or not dominating, and in either instances it's not absolutely necessary.
Super old vet that almost never goes on Mobafire anymore. Contact me in game @ SixSonatas and Mobafire chat (NA).
SixSonatas wrote:
So here's the Sonatas' advice on snowballing items.
Don't get them. Simply don't. They may offer high ratios for AP or AD per gold, but they don't offer secondary effects like LS, SV, and other things. In fact, they don't even offer secondary stats such as HP, MP, MR, etc.
Those effects are very important in laning and then later on.
Getting a snowballing item assumes that you can completely outplay your opponent, which signifies a pubstomp. If your skill level is that much higher than theirs, then you shouldn't need the item in the first place - just farm your usual items and you still win.
This is why you should never get the snowballing items. In high ELO matches, total deaths usually doesn't exceed 15 per team, and most of those are ganks. Low ELO, if you are able to outplay your opponents completely, then you don't need the items in the first place - they just help you to win a bit easier. The point is that there's really no middle ground to getting snowballing items; you'll either be dominating or not dominating, and in either instances it's not absolutely necessary.
^this
and my psychological effect that I mentioned before... I don't think it made as much of an impact as I thought it would. In my head I imagined Morgan Freeman speaking it to a crowd of multinational bystanders, and they listen in rapt silence as he puts power and soul into every word he speaks and pause he takes. He finishes with tears in his eyes, and the crowd gives him a standing ovation (they were probably already standing, considering I imagined this on the steps of the lincoln memorial).
Too bad no one even gave a damn.
Click for one of my awesome builds!
Thanks to Mowen, WrATHofVuLK, and AlexanPT for the signatures! Check out Tristana: The Lane Game, Maokai: The Chu8 Way, and Twisted Fate: Card Games!
You need to log in before commenting.
Another question for you all to ponder: When and on what champions is it acceptable to get stacking items? Take the following scenario:
You're playing a character that has huge damage potential in early and mid game. However, you have decided to sacrifice some early bursting ganking ability in order to get more survivability early game, transitioning into a strong end-game. Consider LeBlanc, getting Banshee's Veil, Frozen Heart, and Abyssal Scepter. Consider Pantheon, getting Banshee's, Warmog's, and Atma's. Is it worth it to get stacking items to compensate for your lack of early game damage? How else will you be effective early-game?
Also take the case of a character with extreme mobility and fantastic ganking ability that can almost always get away. Consider Kassadin, for example, who can reliably escape with Rift Walk. Is Mejai's good on him?
Finally, take the last, rarest case, of a player who is building bulky DPS but starts out with a very aggressive item build. Let's use jungle Olaf as an example. He builds Sword of the Occult first and gets off a lot of good ganks, reaching 8 stacks (6 assists, 1 kill). However, the majority of the kills he got went to his ranged carries in mid and top lane, Miss Fortune and Ashe. Knowing that the ranged carries will deal out huge damage late-game, Olaf transitions into a bulky DPS build, getting Sunfire, Force of Nature, and Guardian Angel and no other offensive items. However, because of the scare that the enemy team got early game and the stacks that Olaf has, he is immediately the first glaring target that they focus. This gives your carries time to turn around the team fight, even though you die in the process. In that sense, you're abusing the notion of the snowball item as a "FOCUS ME" beacon to protect your carries.